Joseph Smith Died In A "shoot-out"

[alter idem]

Let me make absolutely clear, Joseph Smith was unjustly murdered in a horrible fashion. The question for us here is would most people define Joseph Smith as a Martyr.

The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause. Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom. This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.

John

Then by your definition, you would call Hyrum a martyr, since he didn't fight back.

Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.

I doubt that--your definition is too narrow. The way she lived her life, Joan would have been considered a martyr for her cause even if she'd died in battle or trying to defend her own life or her friends' lives.

I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.

You "hit a nerve" because you are dismissing the cold blooded murder of Joseph and Hyrum while they were under the protection of the govt. by a brutal mob.

What I don't understand is how you could be surprised that believing LDS might be offended by this?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I was only saying that JS made a prophecy about himself that closely paralleled the language of a prophecy made about Christ. Joseph Smith drew that parallel -- not me.

--clint

Care to respond to Loudmouth's post?

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

"Did OJ willing go to the LA County lockup? Eventually."

Godwin's Law. You are loosing the argument.

[LifeOnaPlate]

This will allow me to sum up my point nicely:

1. Because Joseph fought back many would say that Joseph was not a martyr.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid, the second clause of “witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion was not met.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

1. Because Joseph fought back, many would say that it wasn’t a sacrifice.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

2. Because Joseph life ended while defending against secular charges, some would say that he didn’t die for the “sake of a [religious] principle.”

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

My Comparison of Joseph to Slobodan Milošević, OJ, and Islamic suicide bombers is simply to show that too wide a definition of the word martyr allows for many that we generally do not precivie as martyrs to be defined so and is thus a Reductio ad absurdum of the word. I do not intend to imply that their character, motives, or morality is in an way connected.

The only absudum thing about it is your comparison.

Me too. The question is was Joseph a religious martyr in his death.

And the answer is yes.

Excuse me?

You're excused. You're also apparently unaware that JS shouldn't have even been in the Carthage jail at that point of the proceedings.

[maklelan]

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[maklelan]

2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid,

By all means, please share with us the law that was broken and your reasoning for thinking his charge valid?

[HanClinto]

Care to respond to Loudmouth's post?

I thought it was a good post, and after a first reading, I don't think I have anything to disagree with it about. I can check back through my previous posts, but I don't think I would have ever denied that Joseph was killed for his beliefs (and the actions that were driven from his beliefs). In this way, he is certainly a martyr -- previous pages laid it out pretty well that many people fall under this umbrella -- both surrendered lambs like Perpetua and fighting bulls that kill men as they themselves are taken down. It's a wide umbrella.

So while LoudmouthMormon's post was good, it wasn't addressing the same point that I was. I wasn't arguing the "martyr" term -- I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

That's all.

--clint

[emeliza]

I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

When JS was on his way to Cathage, I don't believe he had the weapons in question with him. He was willingly going without a fight (at this point). However I believe he was given the guns (by the jailer--my memory isn't working well with the cold I have coming on) and I don't think he used his until his brother was killed. So at the time of his comment, I think that is what his outlook was....going like a lamb to slaughter. I am not sure the use of his gun negates that comment either though as he might have fought, but his limited weapons were no match for the mob and that would be similar to the same as a lamb who is no match for the slaughter (though they generally do buck and fight to get away).

[alter idem]

MARTYR--a martyr was a person who sealed his testimony (WITNESS) with his own blood. The word "MARTYR" is the Greek word which means "WITNESS." Those who were willing to DIE for their faith were called MARTYRS or BLOOD-WITNESSES. See Acts 22:20 and Revelation 17:6 where this word "martyr" is used.

This is what Joseph and Hyrum did when they died at Carthage jail. This is why LDS have called them "martyrs". I don't think LDS people need to make any excuses for calling them "martyrs.

[mledbetter]

I thought it was a good post, and after a first reading, I don't think I have anything to disagree with it about. I can check back through my previous posts, but I don't think I would have ever denied that Joseph was killed for his beliefs (and the actions that were driven from his beliefs). In this way, he is certainly a martyr -- previous pages laid it out pretty well that many people fall under this umbrella -- both surrendered lambs like Perpetua and fighting bulls that kill men as they themselves are taken down. It's a wide umbrella.

So while LoudmouthMormon's post was good, it wasn't addressing the same point that I was. I wasn't arguing the "martyr" term -- I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

That's all.

--clint

Even considering he fought back, I'd say that one little pistol vs. a mob of rifles pretty much adds up to a "lamb to the slaughter" in my book. Lambs can bite back sometimes.

[LifeOnaPlate]

When JS was on his way to Cathage, I don't believe he had the weapons in question with him. He was willingly going without a fight (at this point). However I believe he was given the guns (by the jailer--my memory isn't working well with the cold I have coming on) and I don't think he used his until his brother was killed. So at the time of his comment, I think that is what his outlook was....going like a lamb to slaughter. I am not sure the use of his gun negates that comment either though as he might have fought, but his limited weapons were no match for the mob and that would be similar to the same as a lamb who is no match for the slaughter (though they generally do buck and fight to get away).

The gun was smuggled in by someone, I can't recall who. Cyrus Wheelock, or Dan Jones, or someone like that.

[emeliza]

The gun was smuggled in by someone, I can't recall who. Cyrus Wheelock, or Dan Jones, or someone like that.

Thank you.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It was Cyrus Wheelock who smuggled in the gun.

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs.... (Hyrum was shot in the face and was killed instantly, John Taylor continued)

I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)"

[mledbetter]

It was Cyrus Wheelock who smuggled in the gun.

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs.... (Hyrum was shot in the face and was killed instantly, John Taylor continued)

I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)"

Yep, our lamb had a nasty bite. Good for the Prophet.

[MormonMason]

The report about the three dying that day after being shot by Joseph Smith was a rumor account that was in error. See the book entitled Carthage Conspiracy, pp. 52-53 and notes on pp. 61-62, for further information that shows that the three men shot by Joseph Smith were alive that day and had fled the region to avoid trial as their wounds would have been ample evidence that they were present in the mob. Further testimony showed that these men were given new suits as rewards for their parts in the killings.

I post the revelant portions of the pages cited here for those without access to this book.

[cdowis]

Let me make absolutely clear, Joseph Smith was unjustly murdered in a horrible fashion. The question for us here is would most people define Joseph Smith as a Martyr.

The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause.

“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD." (see D&C 135:4.)

He willingly surrendered himself to the authorities, knowing that he would be murdered.

Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom.

I really don't care what antimormons think. He defended not only himself, but *also* his brother and friends who were in the cell. The mob likely would have killed everyone in the room if he had not used the weapon.

Of course, the antimormon version was that he was alone in the room and had a "shootout".

This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.

Most martyrs are accused of breaking various laws. Peter, Paul, and Christ himself were in jail.

Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.

I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.

The only nerve you have hit is the "I am sick of the antimormons lies and distortions." You really hit that particular nerve.

John

[Jaybear]

Even considering he fought back, I'd say that one little pistol vs. a mob of rifles pretty much adds up to a "lamb to the slaughter" in my book. Lambs can bite back sometimes.

That's absurd.

While lambs can certainly bite, the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" has a specific, and well understood meaning, and its misleading when used to describe how JS was killed. If you are going to use a phrase to describe his death, its more apt to say he went out "kicking and screaming."

Nonetheless, I truly fail to understand this is such a big deal. Mormons aren't pacifists. So what if he shot back, and even killed some of the mob.

[LifeOnaPlate]

While lambs can certainly bite, the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" has a specific, and well understood meaning, and its misleading when used to describe how JS was killed. If you are going to use a phrase to describe his death, its more apt to say he went out "kicking and screaming."

Actually it's more apt to say he died after firing 6 shots, 3 of which misfired.

[creightonian]

This discussion seems to me an immense waste of time. What difference does the title "martyr" make in the consideration of Joseph's life? If it is determined that Joseph was not a "martyr" according to a classical definition of the word , does that change anything about his religious claims up to the point of his death?

The argument should be centered around the question of whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, and what the definition of a prophet is.

[bluebell]

That's absurd.

While lambs can certainly bite, the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" has a specific, and well understood meaning, and its misleading when used to describe how JS was killed. If you are going to use a phrase to describe his death, its more apt to say he went out "kicking and screaming."

Nonetheless, I truly fail to understand this is such a big deal. Mormons aren't pacifists. So what if he shot back, and even killed some of the mob.

To be fair, joseph said that he was going 'like a lamb to the slaughter' on his way to carthage jail, and his conduct on the way to said jail does fit in with the 'commonly understood meaning' of the phrase.

JS, as a mortal man, could not have guessed his reaction when faced with armed men firing at him and his loved ones in a confined space, and i don't believe he even tried to gauge it.

I don't think his announcement of a 'lamb to the slaughter' was a prophecy of what his conduct at the time of his death would be but rather an announcement of his willingly submitting to an course that would lead to his death.

He certainly went like a lamb to the 'slaughter house'. His actions once there were not so meek.

[bluebell]

This discussion seems to me an immense waste of time. What difference does the title "martyr" make in the consideration of Joseph's life? If it is determined that Joseph was not a "martyr" according to a classical definition of the word , does that change anything about his religious claims up to the point of his death?

The argument should be centered around the question of whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, and what the definition of a prophet is.

In case you have noticed, about 99% of the threads here don't 'make a difference' in the grand scheme of things.

Most of what we do is, eternally, an immense waste of time-but we do it anyway, for one reason or another.

[juliann]

That's absurd.

While lambs can certainly bite, the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" has a specific, and well understood meaning, and its misleading when used to describe how JS was killed. If you are going to use a phrase to describe his death, its more apt to say he went out "kicking and screaming."

Only if you want to make the martyrdom an issue of the few minutes when gunfire was exchanged. But to do that you have to ignore why they were there and the deception involved. Meanwhile, as Idem said...it still leaves the problem of those who did not fire back. For me the most sickening element of this slaughter was that the mob was singing songs as they gathered in the courtyard, indicating they were about to attack. Susan Easton Black says that Joseph requesting that his favorite hymn be sung was to drown out the mob as they awaited the attack.

But I agree with you that it is a silly distinction anyway. He was murdered because he would not give up his beliefs.

[LifeOnaPlate]

To be fair, joseph said that he was going 'like a lamb to the slaughter' on his way to carthage jail, and his conduct on the way to said jail does fit in with the 'commonly understood meaning' of the phrase.

JS, as a mortal man, could not have guessed his reaction when faced with armed men firing at him and his loved ones in a confined space, and i don't believe he even tried to gauge it.

I don't think his announcement of a 'lamb to the slaughter' was a prophecy of what his conduct at the time of his death would be but rather an announcement of his willingly submitting to an course that would lead to his death.

He certainly went like a lamb to the 'slaughter house'. His actions once there were not so meek.

Perfect.

[Mudcat]

Imagine if Joseph hadn't used the pistol. Not only would his friends have likely died with him, but he'd now be facing charges of disloyalty by not doing all in his power to protect his friends. Damned if you, or don't.

So, mudcat, let me ask you a question. You live in 100 AD. You are put in the colleseum, together with your 12 year old daughter, to be killed for believing in Christ. Do you:

1) Kneel, pray, and die?

2) Defend your life and your daughter's life, but still die?

3) Defend only your daughter's life, but still die?

4) other.

Im sure you will think Im a monster for saying this..

But...given the situation...viscous lions, no escape, etc...

I would break my daughters neck...so she would not have to experience disembowelment..being eaten alive..or watching daddy being disembowled and being eaten alive first.

I would kneel pray for forgiveness for those who put us here and for forgiveness for myself, while waiting for death.

What would you do Buckeye?

[mledbetter]

Im sure you will think Im a monster for saying this..

But...given the situation...viscous lions, no escape, etc...

I would break my daughters neck...so she would not have to experience disembowelment..being eaten alive..or watching daddy being disembowled and being eaten alive first.

I would kneel pray for forgiveness for those who put us here and for forgiveness for myself, while waiting for death.

What would you do Buckeye?

No offense, but you being a mortal have absolutely no clue how you will react when a lion is facing you ready to eat you. We all like to think of ourselves as tough until we are actually in a very life/death situation. Once your adreniline kicks in and even if shock doesn't overtake you, I seriously doubt you will have the mental clarity to reason all of these things out. BTW, I certainly wouldn't fault you for whatever it is that you do in your final seconds.