344 replies to this topic

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hi John,

I appreciate the contributions you're making to this thread.  I take interest in how we (meaning people in general) define a martyr, and what they presuppose one to look like.  A comment:

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest.

Now, from where I'm standing, many of the original Christian martyrs were killed for breaking the law.  It was usually the law against practicing Christianity.  So, although they have a rightful claim to the title martyr because they were killed for believing in Christ, their killers claim they broke the law and were being justly punished.

Have you read Fox's book of Martyrs?  If you're interested in the term like me, it's a good (and humbling) read.

When I read it, I was surprised by the events surrounding some of the martyrs.  It kind of flies in the face of what you and I probably considered 'martyrable actions':

Polycarp tried to evade capture:
"Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place."

Hermenigildus defended himself, and fled:
"Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

Seven soldiers tried to escape:
"In the year of our Lord 251, the emperor Decius having erected a pagan temple at Ephesus, he commanded all who were in that city to sacrifice to the idols. This order was nobly refused by seven of his own soldiers, viz. Maximianus, Martianus, Joannes, Malchus, Dionysius, Seraion, and Constantinus. The emperor wishing to win these soldiers to renounce their faith by his entreaties and lenity, gave them a considerable respite until he returned from an expedition. During the emperor's absence, they escaped, and hid themselves in a cavern; which the emperor being informed of at his return, the mouth of the cave was closed up, and they all perished with hunger."

Fabian was martyred not because he professed Christ, but for other reasons:
"Fabian, the bishop of Rome, was the first person of eminence who felt the severity of this persecution. The deceased emperor, Philip, had, on account of his integrity, committed his treasure to the care of this good man. But Decius, not finding as much as his avarice made him expect, determined to wreak his vengeance on the good prelate. He was accordingly seized; and on January 20, A.D. 250, he suffered decapitation."

Nichomachus actually recanted his faith:
"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately."

Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily:
"Agatha, a Sicilian lady, was not more remarkable for her personal and acquired endowments, than her piety; her beauty was such, that Quintian, governor of Sicily, became enamored of her, and made many attempts upon her chastity without success. In order to gratify his passions with the greater conveniency, he put the virtuous lady into the hands of Aphrodica, a very infamous and licentious woman. This wretch tried every artifice to win her to the desired prostitution; but found all her efforts were vain; for her chastity was impregnable, and she well knew that virtue alone could procure true happiness. Aphrodica acquainted Quintian with the inefficacy of her endeavors, who, enaged to be foiled in his designs, changed his lust into resentment. On her confessing that she was a Christian, he determined to gratify his revenge, as he could not his passion. Pursuant to his orders, she was scourged, burnt with red-hot irons, and torn with sharp hooks. Having borne these torments with admirable fortitude, she was next laid naked upon live coals, intermingled with glass, and then being carried back to prison, she there expired on February 5, 251."

Susanna was martyred because she didn't want to enter into arranged marriage:
"Susanna, the niece of Caius, bishop of Rome, was pressed by the emperor Diocletian to marry a noble pagan, who was nearly related to him. Refusing the honor intended her, she was beheaded by the emperor's order."

Didymus was martyred because he tried to save an innocent young lady from disgrace:
"Theodora, a beautiful young lady of Antioch, on refusing to sacrifice to the Roman idols, was condemned to the stews, that her virtue might be sacrificed to the brutality of lust. Didymus, a Christian, disguised himself in the habit of a Roman soldier, went to the house, informed Theodora who he was, and advised her to make her escape in his clothes. This being effected, and a man found in the brothel instead of a beautiful lady, Didymus was taken before the president, to whom confessing the truth, and owning that he was a Christian the sentence of death was immediately pronounced against him. Theodora, hearing that her deliverer was likely to suffer, came to the judge, threw herself at his feet, and begged that the sentence might fall on her as the guilty person; but, deaf to the cries of the innocent, and insensible to the calls of justice, the inflexible judge condemned both; when they were executed accordingly, being first beheaded, and their bodies afterward burnt."

An unnamed Christian was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:
"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

[I wonder if he would still be considered a martyr if the Roman's had printing presses...]


In chapter IV, Fox's book of martyrs now tells stories of people persecuted by the Church of Rome.  "We come now to a period when persecution, under the guise of Christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism."

The Earl of Toulouse is considered a martyr, even though he fought back militarily, and even recanted:
"The brave earl defended Toulouse and other places with the most heroic bravery and various success against the pope's legates and Simon, earl of Montfort, a bigoted Catholic nobleman. Unable to subdue the earl of Toulouse openly, the king of France, and the queen mother, and three archbishops raised another formidable army, and had the art to persuade the earl of Toulouse to come to a conference, when he was treacherously seized upon, made a prisoner, forced to appear barefooted and bareheaded before his enemies, and compelled to subscribe an abject recantation. This was followed by a severe persecution against the Albigenses; and express orders that the laity should not be permitted to read the sacred Scriptures."

Fox's book records countless nameless Protestants as martyrs, being murdered by French soldiers, althouth they made no specific stand directly about their faith.
"This horrid butchery was not confined merely to the city of Paris. The like orders were issued from court to the governors of all the provinces in France; so that, in a week's time, about one hundred thousand Protestants were cut to pieces in different parts of the kingdom!"

Many martyrs tried to buy their freedom, but were killed anyway:
"Many who gave great sums of money for their ransom were immediately after slain; and several towns, which were under the king's promise of protection and safety, were cut off as soon as they delivered themselves up, on those promises, to his generals or captains."
"At Penna, after promising them safety, three hundred were inhumanly butchered; and five and forty at Albia, on the Lord's Day."

LM

[Buckeye]

Imagine if Joseph hadn't used the pistol.  Not only would his friends have likely died with him, but he'd now be facing charges of disloyalty by not doing all in his power to protect his friends.  Damned if you, or don't.

So, mudcat, let me ask you a question.  You live in 100 AD.  You are put in the colleseum, together with your 12 year old daughter, to be killed for believing in Christ.  Do you:

1) Kneel, pray, and die?
2) Defend your life and your daughter's life, but still die?
3) Defend only your daughter's life, but still die?
4) other.

Edited by Buckeye, 30 November 2007 - 09:22 AM.

[HanClinto]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

Who said anything about the martyrdom having to directly parallel the death of the Savior?

I was only saying that JS made a prophecy about himself that closely paralleled the language of a prophecy made about Christ. Joseph Smith drew that parallel -- not me.

--clint

[consiglieri]

emeliza, on Nov 30 2007, 09:58 AM, said:

But would he have been considered a fugitive after he was in Cathage Jail?  I thought at the point he was put into jail again, he was no longer a fugitive, but a captive.  Maybe I am wrong.

Well, actually I think he would still have been a fugitive from justice in Missouri, even though he had been taken into custody in Illinois on Illinois charges.

Just trying to be fair here.  

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[bluebell]

LoudmouthMormon, on Nov 30 2007, 09:16 AM, said:

Hi John,

I appreciate the contributions you're making to this thread.  I take interest in how we (meaning people in general) define a martyr, and what they presuppose one to look like.  A comment:
Now, from where I'm standing, many of the original Christian martyrs were killed for breaking the law.  It was usually the law against practicing Christianity.  So, although they have a rightful claim to the title martyr because they were killed for believing in Christ, their killers claim they broke the law and were being justly punished.

Have you read Fox's book of Martyrs?  If you're interested in the term like me, it's a good (and humbling) read.

When I read it, I was surprised by the events surrounding some of the martyrs.  It kind of flies in the face of what you and I probably considered 'martyrable actions':

Polycarp tried to evade capture:
"Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place."

Hermenigildus defended himself, and fled:
"Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

Seven soldiers tried to escape:
"In the year of our Lord 251, the emperor Decius having erected a pagan temple at Ephesus, he commanded all who were in that city to sacrifice to the idols. This order was nobly refused by seven of his own soldiers, viz. Maximianus, Martianus, Joannes, Malchus, Dionysius, Seraion, and Constantinus. The emperor wishing to win these soldiers to renounce their faith by his entreaties and lenity, gave them a considerable respite until he returned from an expedition. During the emperor's absence, they escaped, and hid themselves in a cavern; which the emperor being informed of at his return, the mouth of the cave was closed up, and they all perished with hunger."

Fabian was martyred not because he professed Christ, but for other reasons:
"Fabian, the bishop of Rome, was the first person of eminence who felt the severity of this persecution. The deceased emperor, Philip, had, on account of his integrity, committed his treasure to the care of this good man. But Decius, not finding as much as his avarice made him expect, determined to wreak his vengeance on the good prelate. He was accordingly seized; and on January 20, A.D. 250, he suffered decapitation."

Nichomachus actually recanted his faith:
"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately."

Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily:
"Agatha, a Sicilian lady, was not more remarkable for her personal and acquired endowments, than her piety; her beauty was such, that Quintian, governor of Sicily, became enamored of her, and made many attempts upon her chastity without success. In order to gratify his passions with the greater conveniency, he put the virtuous lady into the hands of Aphrodica, a very infamous and licentious woman. This wretch tried every artifice to win her to the desired prostitution; but found all her efforts were vain; for her chastity was impregnable, and she well knew that virtue alone could procure true happiness. Aphrodica acquainted Quintian with the inefficacy of her endeavors, who, enaged to be foiled in his designs, changed his lust into resentment. On her confessing that she was a Christian, he determined to gratify his revenge, as he could not his passion. Pursuant to his orders, she was scourged, burnt with red-hot irons, and torn with sharp hooks. Having borne these torments with admirable fortitude, she was next laid naked upon live coals, intermingled with glass, and then being carried back to prison, she there expired on February 5, 251."

Susanna was martyred because she didn't want to enter into arranged marriage:
"Susanna, the niece of Caius, bishop of Rome, was pressed by the emperor Diocletian to marry a noble pagan, who was nearly related to him. Refusing the honor intended her, she was beheaded by the emperor's order."

Didymus was martyred because he tried to save an innocent young lady from disgrace:
"Theodora, a beautiful young lady of Antioch, on refusing to sacrifice to the Roman idols, was condemned to the stews, that her virtue might be sacrificed to the brutality of lust. Didymus, a Christian, disguised himself in the habit of a Roman soldier, went to the house, informed Theodora who he was, and advised her to make her escape in his clothes. This being effected, and a man found in the brothel instead of a beautiful lady, Didymus was taken before the president, to whom confessing the truth, and owning that he was a Christian the sentence of death was immediately pronounced against him. Theodora, hearing that her deliverer was likely to suffer, came to the judge, threw herself at his feet, and begged that the sentence might fall on her as the guilty person; but, deaf to the cries of the innocent, and insensible to the calls of justice, the inflexible judge condemned both; when they were executed accordingly, being first beheaded, and their bodies afterward burnt."

An unnamed Christian was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:
"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

[I wonder if he would still be considered a martyr if the Roman's had printing presses...]
In chapter IV, Fox's book of martyrs now tells stories of people persecuted by the Church of Rome.  "We come now to a period when persecution, under the guise of Christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism."

The Earl of Toulouse is considered a martyr, even though he fought back militarily, and even recanted:
"The brave earl defended Toulouse and other places with the most heroic bravery and various success against the pope's legates and Simon, earl of Montfort, a bigoted Catholic nobleman. Unable to subdue the earl of Toulouse openly, the king of France, and the queen mother, and three archbishops raised another formidable army, and had the art to persuade the earl of Toulouse to come to a conference, when he was treacherously seized upon, made a prisoner, forced to appear barefooted and bareheaded before his enemies, and compelled to subscribe an abject recantation. This was followed by a severe persecution against the Albigenses; and express orders that the laity should not be permitted to read the sacred Scriptures."

Fox's book records countless nameless Protestants as martyrs, being murdered by French soldiers, althouth they made no specific stand directly about their faith.
"This horrid butchery was not confined merely to the city of Paris. The like orders were issued from court to the governors of all the provinces in France; so that, in a week's time, about one hundred thousand Protestants were cut to pieces in different parts of the kingdom!"

Many martyrs tried to buy their freedom, but were killed anyway:
"Many who gave great sums of money for their ransom were immediately after slain; and several towns, which were under the king's promise of protection and safety, were cut off as soon as they delivered themselves up, on those promises, to his generals or captains."
"At Penna, after promising them safety, three hundred were inhumanly butchered; and five and forty at Albia, on the Lord's Day."

LM

Incredibly interesting LM.

[emeliza]

bluebell, on Nov 30 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

I get his point to, but i disagree that people's opinions about shooting back etc. are a valid reason to change literal definitions of the word 'martyr'.

I thought they were stating his situation didn't met the definition because the definition included willing.  I personally don't think the willing is what matters though....especially in light of the comment about the Christians killed by lions in the collesuem.  They were most likely not willing to be eaten by lions, however they weren't going to renounce their faith in light of the consequences.  JS was the same way.  He did not renounce his faith in light of the consequences that did end in his death.  He might not have realized he was going to die (though I think he did), but he definitely knew he was going to have some problems as he had been for many years.  I mean....he didn't renounce it when he was tarred and feathered.  So my thought is the willingness is more about not changing your stanze to avoid the problem, rather than not fighting back.

Did I make sense to others or just in my own head?

[mledbetter]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 11:01 AM, said:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo�?¡ević may have had the "means and power to avoid, and even fight" his fate, but that does not make him a martyr for submitting to the The Hague. Nor does fighting against stacked odds make one a martyr for obvious reasons.

John

I think we should see who can come up with the best representation of the "Martyr Point System."  That would be interesting.

Edited by mledbetter, 30 November 2007 - 09:22 AM.

[bluebell]

emeliza, on Nov 30 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

I thought they were stating his situation didn't met the definition because the definition included willing.  I personally don't think the willing is what matters though....especially in light of the comment about the Christians killed by lions in the collesuem.  They were most likely not willing to be eaten by lions, however they weren't going to renounce their faith in light of the consequences.  JS was the same way.  He did not renounce his faith in light of the consequences that did end in his death.  He might not have realized he was going to die (though I think he did), but he definitely knew he was going to have some problems as he had been for many years.  I mean....he didn't renounce it when he was tarred and feathered.  So my thought is the willingness is more about not changing your stanze to avoid the problem, rather than not fighting back.

Did I make sense to others or just in my own head?

No, i think you made good sense and i agree that he willingly went to carthage, even though he believed he would die through that decision.

[consiglieri]

I think that LoudMouthMormon's citations from Foxe's Book of Martyrs helps to inform our discussion of just what constitutes a martyr.

If somebody says Joseph Smith was not a martyr because he "fought back," or because he "broke the law," and is equally willing to exclude some of the early Christian martyrs on the same basis, then that is at least applying the term equally, I suppose.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Larsen]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 09:00 AM, said:

Does wiki dictionary count:
Maybe Merriam-Websters will satisfy you?

This will allow me to sum up my point nicely:

Quote

1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

1. Because Joseph fought back many would say that Joseph was not a martyr.
2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid, the second clause of â??witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion was not met.

Quote

2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

1. Because Joseph fought back, many would say that it wasnâ??t a sacrifice.
2. Because Joseph life ended while defending against secular charges, some would say that he didnâ??t die for the â??sake of a [religious] principle.â?

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 09:00 AM, said:

Right, compare OJ to Joseph Smith. THAT'S not ridiculous at all. [/sarcasm]
â?¦
So Joseph Smith was basically a suicide bomber? You can't be serious.

My Comparison of Joseph to Slobodan Milo�?¡ević, OJ, and Islamic suicide bombers is simply to show that too wide a definition of the word martyr allows for many that we generally  do not precivie as martyrs to be defined so and is thus a Reductio ad absurdum of the word. I do not intend to imply that their character, motives, or morality is in an way connected.

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

I look at his actions as pretty understandable, actually.

Me too. The question is was Joseph a religious martyr in his death.

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

It is not surprising how little you know about the course of events surrounding the martyrdom.

Excuse me?

- Do not violate accepted rules and norms for discussion or debate. Any violation of Godwin's Law or similar laws (extreme comparisons or hyperbole), or lack of substance will result in the closing of a discussion.

You have nothing of substance if you have to call on OJ and Slobadan for help.  You are done in this thread and another one like this and you will be done on this board.

[alter idem]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

Let me make absolutely clear, Joseph Smith was unjustly murdered in a horrible fashion. The question for us here is would most people define Joseph Smith as a Martyr.

The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause. Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom. This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.
John

Then by your definition, you would call Hyrum a martyr, since he didn't fight back.

Quote

Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.

I doubt that--your definition is too narrow.  The way she lived her life,  Joan would have been considered a martyr for her cause even if she'd died in battle or trying to defend her own life or her friends' lives.

Quote

I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.

You "hit a nerve" because you are dismissing the cold blooded murder of Joseph and Hyrum while they were under the protection of the govt.  by a brutal mob.

What I don't understand is how you could be surprised that believing LDS might be offended by this?

Edited by alter idem, 30 November 2007 - 09:34 AM.

[LifeOnaPlate]

HanClinto, on Nov 30 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

I was only saying that JS made a prophecy about himself that closely paralleled the language of a prophecy made about Christ. Joseph Smith drew that parallel -- not me.

--clint

Care to respond to Loudmouth's post?

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

"Did OJ willing go to the LA County lockup? Eventually."

Godwin's Law. You are loosing the argument.

[LifeOnaPlate]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

This will allow me to sum up my point nicely:
1. Because Joseph fought back many would say that Joseph was not a martyr.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Quote

2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid, the second clause of “witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion was not met.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Quote

1. Because Joseph fought back, many would say that it wasn’t a sacrifice.

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Quote

2. Because Joseph life ended while defending against secular charges, some would say that he didn’t die for the “sake of a [religious] principle.”

Read the post above regarding Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Quote

My Comparison of Joseph to Slobodan Milošević, OJ, and Islamic suicide bombers is simply to show that too wide a definition of the word martyr allows for many that we generally  do not precivie as martyrs to be defined so and is thus a Reductio ad absurdum of the word. I do not intend to imply that their character, motives, or morality is in an way connected.

The only absudum thing about it is your comparison.

Quote

Me too. The question is was Joseph a religious martyr in his death.

And the answer is yes.

Quote

Excuse me?

You're excused. You're also apparently unaware that JS shouldn't have even been in the Carthage jail at that point of the proceedings.

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 30 November 2007 - 09:40 AM.

[maklelan]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo�?¡ević may have had the "means and power to avoid, and even fight" his fate, but that does not make him a martyr for submitting to the The Hague. Nor does fighting against stacked odds make one a martyr for obvious reasons.

John

Again, what was the law that was broken?

[maklelan]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid,

By all means, please share with us the law that was broken and your reasoning for thinking his charge valid?

[HanClinto]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 11:35 AM, said:

Care to respond to Loudmouth's post?

I thought it was a good post, and after a first reading, I don't think I have anything to disagree with it about. I can check back through my previous posts, but I don't think I would have ever denied that Joseph was killed for his beliefs (and the actions that were driven from his beliefs). In this way, he is certainly a martyr -- previous pages laid it out pretty well that many people fall under this umbrella -- both surrendered lambs like Perpetua and fighting bulls that kill men as they themselves are taken down. It's a wide umbrella.

So while LoudmouthMormon's post was good, it wasn't addressing the same point that I was. I wasn't arguing the "martyr" term -- I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

That's all.

--clint

Edited by HanClinto, 30 November 2007 - 09:49 AM.

[emeliza]

HanClinto, on Nov 30 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

When JS was on his way to Cathage, I don't believe he had the weapons in question with him.  He was willingly going without a fight (at this point).  However I believe he was given the guns (by the jailer--my memory isn't working well with the cold I have coming on) and I don't think he used his until his brother was killed.  So at the time of his comment, I think that is what his outlook was....going like a lamb to slaughter.  I am not sure the use of his gun negates that comment either though as he might have fought, but his limited weapons were no match for the mob and that would be similar to the same as a lamb who is no match for the slaughter (though they generally do buck and fight to get away).

[alter idem]

Quote

MARTYR--a martyr was a person who sealed his testimony (WITNESS) with his own blood. The word "MARTYR" is the Greek word which means "WITNESS." Those who were willing to DIE for their faith were called MARTYRS or BLOOD-WITNESSES. See Acts 22:20 and Revelation 17:6 where this word "martyr" is used.

This is what Joseph and Hyrum did when they died at Carthage jail.  This is why LDS have called them "martyrs".  I don't think LDS people need to make any excuses for calling them "martyrs.

[mledbetter]

HanClinto, on Nov 30 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

I thought it was a good post, and after a first reading, I don't think I have anything to disagree with it about. I can check back through my previous posts, but I don't think I would have ever denied that Joseph was killed for his beliefs (and the actions that were driven from his beliefs). In this way, he is certainly a martyr -- previous pages laid it out pretty well that many people fall under this umbrella -- both surrendered lambs like Perpetua and fighting bulls that kill men as they themselves are taken down. It's a wide umbrella.

So while LoudmouthMormon's post was good, it wasn't addressing the same point that I was. I wasn't arguing the "martyr" term -- I was merely talking about what it meant to be surrendered as a lamb to slaughter, and I was merely trying to exegete from the Bible as well as Mormon texts to examine what the term means in the general sense, and then further what Joseph Smith meant by it in his own prophecy.

That's all.

--clint

Even considering he fought back, I'd say that one little pistol vs. a mob of rifles pretty much adds up to a "lamb to the slaughter" in my book.  Lambs can bite back sometimes.