344 replies to this topic

[consiglieri]

Mudcat, on Dec 7 2007, 12:50 PM, said:

Consiglieri,

True, Its almost and may be a direct paralell of thought. It's been several years since I read through the BoM but I do remember that this was a place that gave me pause.  No intent to offend, but at present, I would believe the credit for the concept as quoted in the BoM belongs to Joseph Smith and not Mormon.

Sincerely,

Mudcat

Then what are we to make of the fact that a "parallel of thought" exists between you and Joseph Smith, if not Mormon, in this regard?

Perhaps you are both inspired?

Another favorite passage of mine that pertains to this issue is Alma 29, where Alma wishes that he were an angel so that he could declare the gospel to everyone on the face of the earth; but then stops and realizes he sins in his wish, because if God wanted an angel, God would have an angel; but instead God has chosen to give as much light to all mankind as they are willing to receive; through individuals called from among their own ranks, culture and nationality.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mudcat]

consiglieri, on Dec 7 2007, 12:55 PM, said:

Then what are we to make of the fact that a "parallel of thought" exists between you and Joseph Smith, if not Mormon, in this regard?

Consiglieri,
       I never have made to much out of it, though I do agree with you that it apparently exists. I know a few people...who have drawn the same conclusions on their own.

In retrospect....
What is the deeper meaning of all that?
...I don't have a clue.
      

Mudcat

[consiglieri]

Mudcat, on Dec 7 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

Consiglieri,
       I never have made to much out of it, though I do agree with you that it apparently exists. I know a few people...who have drawn the same conclusions on their own.

In retrospect....
What is the deeper meaning of all that?
...I don't have a clue.
      

Mudcat

If nothing else, I think the deeper meaning may mean a fuller conception of the justice and mercy of God.

Have a great weekend!

--Consiglieri

[Joshu]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause. Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom. This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.

Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.

I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.

John

I realize I'm jumping into this way, way, after the fact but I just wanted to respond to this particlualry post. For the sake of effective communication I think we can disregard the common definition of martyr and just  rely on the actual definition of martyr.

The Oxford English Dictionary, which is the foremost authority on such matters says it this way.

1. a. Christian Church. A person who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce faith in Christ or obedience to his teachings, a Christian way of life, or adherence to a law or tenet of the Church; (also) a person who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce the beliefs or tenets of a particular Christian denomination, sect, etc.
2. a. In extended (esp. non-religious) contexts: a person who undergoes death or great suffering for a faith, belief, or cause, or (usu. with to; also with of, for) through devotion to some object.

So case closed on that. Joseph was a martyr.

But really it's this reference to Joan of Arc that sparked my ire. Joan of Arc was a rebel who launched an illegal attach against the sovereign King of France, namely, Henry V, the King of England. Not only did she submit to no one but God but she actively attempted escape from prison on numerous occasions including leaping from a 70 ft tower. She is a martyr because she died for her beliefs, we love her because her side won and France was eventually taken from the English. What would we say of Joseph if his side had won?

[Mudcat]

Joshu, on Dec 16 2007, 04:13 PM, said:

I realize I'm jumping into this way, way, after the fact but I just wanted to respond to this particlualry post. For the sake of effective communication I think we can disregard the common definition of martyr and just  rely on the actual definition of martyr.

The Oxford English Dictionary, which is the foremost authority on such matters says it this way.

1. a. Christian Church. A person who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce faith in Christ or obedience to his teachings, a Christian way of life, or adherence to a law or tenet of the Church; (also) a person who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce the beliefs or tenets of a particular Christian denomination, sect, etc.
2. a. In extended (esp. non-religious) contexts: a person who undergoes death or great suffering for a faith, belief, or cause, or (usu. with to; also with of, for) through devotion to some object.

So case closed on that. Joseph was a martyr.

But really it's this reference to Joan of Arc that sparked my ire. Joan of Arc was a rebel who launched an illegal attach against the sovereign King of France, namely, Henry V, the King of England. Not only did she submit to no one but God but she actively attempted escape from prison on numerous occasions including leaping from a 70 ft tower. She is a martyr because she died for her beliefs, we love her because her side won and France was eventually taken from the English. What would we say of Joseph if his side had won?

If he had won and survived the encounter, I believe it would be sufficient to say that in history he would not be considered a martyr. And we would all feel rather foolish for posting 18 pages of comments on this topic, if that were the case.

Edited by Mudcat, 16 December 2007 - 04:24 PM.