344 replies to this topic

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

I believe Joseph's act of martyrdom was when he surrendered to the law knowing he wasn't going to survive going to Carthage, which he didn't. He had the means to avoid and the man power to fight that fate, then and there. The actual scene of his death, not the model martyr scene starting from that point, thought his single gun vs 200 guns is not what I'd call a "battle" or "shoot out" to disqualify the martyrdom, in the context that he had any expectation that his could still change his fate.

Edited by Ray Callis Hatton III, 30 November 2007 - 09:05 AM.

[John Larsen]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 08:46 AM, said:

Ah, I see. A martyr doesn't count if you disagree with their cause.

Actually, I do agree with the cause of the Palestinians. I just don't agree with these sorts of violent methods. There are many Palestinian martyrs. I just wouldn't count those who choose this path as martyrs.

John

[bluebell]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:45 AM, said:

One must be careful about defining the word â??martyrâ? as simply dying for a religious cause. This casts a very wide net. Wouldnâ??t the 9/11 perpetrators then be defined as martyrs? Or Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Or Palestine who blow themselves up on buses?

Yes, those are all martyrs as well.

Being labeled a martyr is not an endorsement of someone's beliefs.  Using the word in that way makes it a useless word because it reduces it to 'i agree with the cause this person died for' and nothing more.

The moment we start witholding the use of certain words to apply to people or events we disagree with-we make words useless and without ANY meaning whatsoever.

It's a self-serving method for defining things.

[emeliza]

consiglieri, on Nov 30 2007, 11:06 AM, said:

Again, technically, Joseph Smith was a fugitive from justice from the time that he "escaped" from Liberty Jail.

But would he have been considered a fugitive after he was in Cathage Jail?  I thought at the point he was put into jail again, he was no longer a fugitive, but a captive.  Maybe I am wrong.

[bluebell]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

I just wouldn't count those who choose this path as martyrs.

John

Why?

[Mudcat]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:45 AM, said:

One must be careful about defining the word â??martyrâ? as simply dying for a religious cause. This casts a very wide net. Wouldnâ??t the 9/11 perpetrators then be defined as martyrs? Or Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Or Palestine who blow themselves up on buses?

I donâ??t mean to imply Joseph was a terrorist. I think Joseph was justified in shooting back. I am just trying to hone in on the word martyr. Going back to the original post comparing the loaded word â??martyrâ? with the loaded words â??shoot outâ?. The latter implies Joseph was a criminal, the former implies he was innocent or passive. Both extremes are a stretch.

John

I would think that the people that support the same beliefs as terrorists, would support the fact that their actions are the actions of a martyr. After all, they are sacrificing themselves for their beleifs

However, the rest of the world would call them a terrorist.

I think Consig...has made a good point about the "defense of others".
However, to non LDS, the fact that JS fired at assailants (injuring and maybe killing men) with a smuggled in pistol, regardless of intention of defense, will put a "cloud" over his martyrdom to some degree.

Edited by Mudcat, 30 November 2007 - 09:00 AM.

[LifeOnaPlate]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:52 AM, said:

I seem to be accused of making up my own definition of the word. I think I have made clear my understand. So those of you who don't like my definition, please give me a better definition.

Does wiki dictionary count:

Quote

A Christian martyr is one who is murdered or put to death for his Christian faith or convictions.

Quote

one who suffers for the sake of principle

Maybe Merriam-Websters will satisfy you?

Quote

1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

I see no clause about "not firing back" there.

Quote

Did OJ willing go to the LA County lockup? Eventually.

John

Right, compare OJ to Joseph Smith. THAT'S not ridiculous at all. [/sarcasm]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

Actually, I do agree with the cause of the Palestinians. I just don't agree with these sorts of violent methods. There are many Palestinian martyrs. I just wouldn't count those who choose this path as martyrs.

John

So Joseph Smith was basically a suicide bomber? You can't be serious.

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 30 November 2007 - 08:59 AM.

[maklelan]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.

Perhaps you could tell us exactly which law was violated by that event.

[John Larsen]

Ray Callis Hatton III, on Nov 30 2007, 08:54 AM, said:

I believe Joseph's act of martyrdom was when he surrendered to the law knowing he wasn't going to survive going to Carthage, and he had the means and power to avoid, and even fight that fate. The actual scene of his death, not the model martyr scene, but a single gun vs 200 guns was not a "battle" or "shoot out" in the context that he had any expectation to win.

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo�?¡ević may have had the "means and power to avoid, and even fight" his fate, but that does not make him a martyr for submitting to the The Hague. Nor does fighting against stacked odds make one a martyr for obvious reasons.

John

[Buckeye]

I don't see how shooting back lessens the martyrdom.  It is correct to say that a soldier "died for his countries" even if he didn't want to die and did everything he could to prevent his death, including shooting at the enemy.

It is also necessary to remember that Joseph's shots protected more than just himself.  Though Hyrum was already dead, Richards and Taylor were still alive.  The shots, coupled with Joseph then fleeing to, and falling through, the window, in all likelihood saved his friends' lives.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Mudcat, on Nov 30 2007, 08:59 AM, said:

I think Consig...has made a good point about the "defense of others".
However, to non LDS, the fact that JS fired at assailants (injuring and maybe killing men) with a smuggled in pistol, regardless of intention of defense, will put a "cloud" over his martyrdom to some degree.

I look at his actions as pretty understandable, actually.

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo�?¡ević may have had the "means and power to avoid, and even fight" his fate, but that does not make him a martyr for submitting to the The Hague. Nor does fighting against stacked odds make one a martyr for obvious reasons.

John

It is not surprising how little you know about the course of events surrounding the martyrdom.

[Mudcat]

Ray Callis Hatton III, on Nov 30 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

I believe Joseph's act of martyrdom was when he surrendered to the law knowing he wasn't going to survive going to Carthage, and he had the means and power to avoid, and even fight that fate. The actual scene of his death, not the model martyr scene, but a single gun vs 200 guns was not a "battle" or "shoot out" in the context that he had any expectation to win.

Then, are implying that JS's intent was to merely injure or kill as many as he could before he died. Would this then be an act of revenge and not defense?

[Lightbearer]

The Prophet Joseph Smith was a martyr and a hero in every sense of of the word. He willingly went to Carthage when he could have escaped to the Rocky Mountains. The reason for the "shoot-out" was in defence of his brethern who were in the jail with him. In fact he was fullfilling a promise that he would die for his friends...that was also the reason he leaped from the window to draw the mob away from the jail cell which probably saved John Taylor and Willard Richards life.

[emeliza]

I get John Larsen's point.  Some people state that by shooting back and other actions JS was not willingly dying.  Some don't believe he is a martyr, others do.  We can't prove he was.  Yes, he died for his beliefs, but he died fighting for them.  So maybe hero is a better word.  I can deal with either.

[Buckeye]

John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 11:01 AM, said:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo�?¡ević may have had the "means and power to avoid, and even fight" his fate, but that does not make him a martyr for submitting to the The Hague. Nor does fighting against stacked odds make one a martyr for obvious reasons.

John

Precipitating events, even if illegal, do not of themselves remove the martyr label.  Paul would not have been martyred in Rome if he had not petitioned for Ceaser's aid.  Christ broke many man-made laws (working on the sabbath, etc.), yet that does not lessen his death.  Do you really think that all the early christians killed in the colleseum just sat there and didn't fight back?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Joseph Smith doesn't need my approval, or the approval of John, Mudcat, or anyone else here to be seen in the eyes of God as a martyr.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr!

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain

[cjcampbell]

Personally, I am going to continue to refer to Joseph Smith as a martyr, just as I am going to continue to call myself a Christian.

I am not going to let those who have a personal agenda against us create artificial definitions that are so narrow as to exclude me from calling myself a Christian or Joseph Smith a martyr.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Buckeye, on Nov 30 2007, 09:09 AM, said:

Precipitating events, even if illegal, do not of themselves remove the martyr label.  Paul would not have been martyred in Rome if he had not petitioned for Ceaser's aid.  Christ broke many man-made laws (working on the sabbath, etc.), yet that does not lessen his death.  Do you really think that all the early christians killed in the colleseum just sat there and didn't fight back?

Any Christian who ran from the lion is not a martyr.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Mudcat, on Nov 30 2007, 10:04 AM, said:

Then, are implying that JS's intent was to merely injure or kill as many as he could before he died. Would this then be an act of revenge and not defense?

Perhaps avenging, though he may of had a sudden realization after his brother died in his arms that he was not the soul target for assassination there, and put up a fight in a bleak defense of his friends still alive, not necessarily in defense of himself, which in context of his statements when arrested, he was fully expecting that he was going to die and originally went unarmed.

Edited by Ray Callis Hatton III, 30 November 2007 - 09:53 AM.

[bluebell]

emeliza, on Nov 30 2007, 09:05 AM, said:

I get John Larsen's point.  Some people state that by shooting back and other actions JS was not willingly dying.  Some don't believe he is a martyr, others do.  We can't prove he was.  Yes, he died for his beliefs, but he died fighting for them.  So maybe hero is a better word.  I can deal with either.

I get his point to, but i disagree that people's opinions about shooting back etc. are a valid reason to change literal definitions of the word 'martyr'.