A recent issue of Creation magazine (December 2006-February 2007) featured an article on Mormon belief.
Next to a picture of Liberty Jail appeared the following caption:
Quote
Liberty Jail as it appeared in 1839. Smith and several of his co-leaders were imprisoned here on state charges of murder and treason. After several months, they escaped by bribing prison guards with money and alcohol. He remained a fugitive from justice until his life ended in a shoot-out on June 27, 1844.
I found the spin used in this caption to be breathtaking, and post it here for public comment.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
"The bad apologetics of today become the public apologies of tomorrow."--MercyNGrace (March 18, 2011)
Joseph did shoot back. However calling it a â??shoot outâ? is a distortion. However, I think calling Joseph a Martyr is also stretch of the common understanding of that term too. As usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
And here I thought he was in jail when he was killed....
Well, he was, of course. But the article doesn't say he was not in jail. It just doesn't mention it.
After the mob assembled in the square and a large body of them overwhelmed the guard and rushed up the stairs to the room Joseph and his associates were in; and after a number of volleys were fired by them through the wooden door; and after one of those rounds hit Hyrum in the head and killed him; Joseph Smith took out a small pistol that had been smuggled into him and blindly fired about three shots around the door into the mob on the landing.
After that, Joseph Smith rushed to the window where he was hit from rounds both inside and outside.
So technically, it could be said that Joseph Smith died in a "shoot-out."
This is part of what I meant when I said I found the spin to be breathtaking.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
"The bad apologetics of today become the public apologies of tomorrow."--MercyNGrace (March 18, 2011)
This is part of what I meant when I said I found the spin to be breathtaking.
The part that bothered me was the he was a fugitive from justice until his death which is untrue. I also don't believe he bribed his way out of Liberty Jail. The 'shoot-out' doesn't bother me so much because you could still call it that.
When you blame others, you give up your power to change. - Dr. Robert Anthony
The part that bothered me was the he was a fugitive from justice until his death which is untrue. I also don't believe he bribed his way out of Liberty Jail. The 'shoot-out' doesn't bother me so much because you could still call it that.
Again, technically, Joseph Smith was a fugitive from justice from the time that he "escaped" from Liberty Jail; and numerous times law enforcement from Missouri came over to Nauvoo to try to arrest Joseph and take him back to Missouri for "trial." Joseph Smith was successful in either hiding out from them, or taking the matter to Nauvoo city court and obtaining favorable rulings that prevented him from being taken back.
Remember the stories about the "whistling brigade" that Joseph organized in Nauvoo?
Remember the stories about Joseph Smith hiding out on that little island in the middle of the Mighty Mississipp?
So here again, while technically correct, the article manages to spin the facts quite effectively against Joseph Smith.
As I said, "breathtaking."
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
"The bad apologetics of today become the public apologies of tomorrow."--MercyNGrace (March 18, 2011)
Joseph did shoot back. However calling it a â??shoot outâ? is a distortion. However, I think calling Joseph a Martyr is also stretch of the common understanding of that term too. As usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
John
THe common understanding of the word 'martyr' is someone who is murdered or put to death for their beliefs.
How does JS's experience 'stretch' that term?
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Joseph did shoot back. However calling it a â??shoot outâ? is a distortion. However, I think calling Joseph a Martyr is also stretch of the common understanding of that term too. As usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
John
Show me any rule, law or guideline that says a martyr cannot fire a weapon. Thanks.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition." -C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
Cause everyone knows that a martyr is someone that commits assisted or unassisted suicide for religious reasons.
"He's harmless. Back in the '60s he was part of the free speech movement at Berkeley. I think he did a little too much LDS." ~ Captain Kirk in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
We are the Morg! Lower your weapons and surrender your souls. You will be assimilated into the Morg Bot Collective.
We will add your cultural and biological distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile!
Joseph did shoot back. However calling it a â??shoot outâ? is a distortion. However, I think calling Joseph a Martyr is also stretch of the common understanding of that term too. As usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
John
Accourding to the dictionary of John Larsen. I really dislike private interpretations of such common words. As you can tell John, No one is interested in your opinion on the word "Martyr".
"Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram. Mola Ram.... Mola Ram.... Mola Ram Suda Ram." Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Dogs have more in common with mammals than they have in common with wolves.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition." -C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
THe common understanding of the word 'martyr' is someone who is murdered or put to death for their beliefs.
How does JS's experience 'stretch' that term?
Let me make absolutely clear, Joseph Smith was unjustly murdered in a horrible fashion. The question for us here is would most people define Joseph Smith as a Martyr.
The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause. Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom. This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.
Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.
I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.
I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.
John
And I think you make a fair point.
With Joseph Smith, the issue may become a little more clouded due to the presence in the same room of his brother and close associates.
Because Joseph Smith "fought back" immediately after his brother was murdered in cold blood before his eyes, it is harder to say who Joseph Smith was "fighting back" to protect, or to avenge.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
"The bad apologetics of today become the public apologies of tomorrow."--MercyNGrace (March 18, 2011)
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
This is obviously speaking about Christ, speaking of the innocent and unresisting way in which Christ was killed without fighting back or running.
D&C 135:4a (talking about JS) has language parallels:
Quote
"I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summerâ??s morning"
One might get the impression from a cursory reading of this text that JS was saying he would be killed similarly to how Christ was killed, and that he would be similarly calm and unresisting. I certainly wouldn't dispute that it was a "slaughter" -- even if Joseph did injure (or even kill) a few of the attacking men, it still wasn't a fair fight.
The main issue I see is with the "lamb" part. If he had said, "as a bucking and fighting goat I am slaughtered" then I would feel it would be more accurately prophetic, at least in contrast to Christ.
Let me make absolutely clear, Joseph Smith was unjustly murdered in a horrible fashion. The question for us here is would most people define Joseph Smith as a Martyr.
The common definition of a religious martyr includes willingly suffering or dying for a religious cause. Since Joseph fought back, many people would commonly discount his death as a martyrdom. This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.
Let me use an example for illustration. Joan of Arc is generally considered to be a martyr because she willing submitted to the will of the Church in her execution. If she had died in battle or had fought her captors to try to escape, she still might be considered a hero but most people would not consider her a martyr.
I seem to have hit a nerve on this one. I am just trying to point out a lexical disconnect between Mormons and non-Mormons.
John
Joseph willingly going to Carthage, where he said he would be killed, rather than running to the West or to Wisconsin, seems pretty willing to me.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition." -C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
One must be careful about defining the word â??martyrâ? as simply dying for a religious cause. This casts a very wide net. Wouldnâ??t the 9/11 perpetrators then be defined as martyrs? Or Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Or Palestine who blow themselves up on buses?
I donâ??t mean to imply Joseph was a terrorist. I think Joseph was justified in shooting back. I am just trying to hone in on the word martyr. Going back to the original post comparing the loaded word â??martyrâ? with the loaded words â??shoot outâ?. The latter implies Joseph was a criminal, the former implies he was innocent or passive. Both extremes are a stretch.
Isaiah 53:7 (repeated in Mosiah 14:7):
This is obviously speaking about Christ, speaking of the innocent and unresisting way in which Christ was killed without fighting back or running.
D&C 135:4a (talking about JS) has language parallels:
One might get the impression from a cursory reading of this text that JS was saying he would be killed similarly to how Christ was killed, and that he would be similarly calm and unresisting. I certainly wouldn't dispute that it was a "slaughter" -- even if Joseph did injure (or even kill) a few of the attacking men, it still wasn't a fair fight.
The main issue I see is with the "lamb" part. If he had said, "as a bucking and fighting goat I am slaughtered" then I would feel it would be more accurately prophetic, at least in contrast to Christ.
--clint
Who said anything about the martyrdom having to directly parallel the death of the Savior?
John Larsen, on Nov 30 2007, 08:45 AM, said:
One must be careful about defining the word â??martyrâ? as simply dying for a religious cause. This casts a very wide net. Wouldnâ??t the 9/11 perpetrators then be defined as martyrs? Or Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Or Palestine who blow themselves up on buses?
I donâ??t mean to imply Joseph was a terrorist. I think Joseph was justified in shooting back. I am just trying to hone in on the word martyr. Going back to the original post comparing the loaded word â??martyrâ? with the loaded words â??shoot outâ?. The latter implies Joseph was a criminal, the former implies he was innocent or passive. Both extremes are a stretch.
John
Ah, I see. A martyr doesn't count if you disagree with their cause.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition." -C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
Joseph willingly going to Carthage, where he said he would be killed, rather than running to the West or to Wisconsin, seems pretty willing to me.
Just for clarification, he did run. He was smuggled out of Nauvoo across the river but later decided to give up. He indicated at one point it was because his family and friends had abandoned him. Clearly his sole intention wasn't to submit himself to the law, at least not in the beginning.
Just for clarification, he did run. He was smuggled out of Nauvoo across the river but later decided to give up. He indicated at one point it was because his family and friends had abandoned him. Clearly his sole intention wasn't to submit himself to the law, at least not in the beginning.
John
Did he or did he not willingly choose to go to Carthage?
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition." -C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
I seem to be accused of making up my own definition of the word. I think I have made clear my understand. So those of you who don't like my definition, please give me a better definition.
John
LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 30 2007, 08:50 AM, said:
Did he or did he not willingly choose to go to Carthage?
Did OJ willing go to the LA County lockup? Eventually.
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