103 replies to this topic

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:20 PM, said:

Yes, defining "work" would prove useful.  I never thought of repentance as a work.  

No.  We must agree to making "the change".  Now, whether God draws us to that change in a Calvinist way or not is another discussion, but regardless, I don't see repentance as a work.
Calvinist= He has not drawn them to Him.

Arminian = They have not made a "decision" for Christ.

Does that answer it?  I'm not sure where you're headed.

I feel you avoided the direct question. Did the prodigal choose to repent? If so, how did he repent? And how is that repentance not a work?

[Hoops22]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 13 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

I feel you avoided the direct question. Did the prodigal choose to repent? If so, how did he repent? And how is that repentance not a work?

I don't know.

You are making the assertion that repentance is a work.  Define work and tell me how it is.

[thesometimesaint]

Hoops22:

I think ultimately the question is Does God save us when we refuse to repent? The Bible leaves that question unanswered in the Parable of the Prodigal son. But I do believe that God will only exalt us to our willingness to accept.

[Hoops22]

thesometimesaint, on Nov 13 2007, 12:33 PM, said:

Hoops22:

I think ultimately the question is Does God save us when we refuse to repent? The Bible leaves that question unanswered in the Parable of the Prodigal son. But I do believe that God will only exalt us to our willingness to accept.

I would disagree.  I think the ultimate question becomes "CAN God save us when we refuse to repent."

I believe there is evidence that He does/can.  Rhino can speak to it better than I since I am not sold yet.  Still the evidence is there.

[emeliza]

fatherofone, on Nov 13 2007, 03:02 PM, said:

so does the story mean that no matter how bad we are we can always come back and will be accepted?

I think there is only one sin that we aren't not able to repent against and only Son's of Perdition can do that (denial of the Holy Ghost when we know with certainty that is what we are doing).

For everything else we can repent and be forgiven.  Actually He would start forgiving us when we are still in the repentance process as well.  But repentance is very hard so it is much easier if you can, not to mess up in the first place.  However He will always love us and accept us back.  He accepts us as His children even when we don't repent, but our eternal life will be different.

[bluebell]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:35 PM, said:

I would disagree.  I think the ultimate question becomes "CAN God save us when we refuse to repent."

I believe there is evidence that He does/can.  Rhino can speak to it better than I since I am not sold yet.  Still the evidence is there.

what is the evidence that supports that belief?

[emeliza]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

You are making the assertion that repentance is a work.  Define work and tell me how it is.

How is repentance not a work?  It is one of the hardest things out there to do sometimes.  I have to work hard to quit doing whatever it was (especially if it was addictive).  I have to feel a godly sorrow for doing it.  (That in itself is hard enough.)  Then I have to try and make up for whatever it was I did wrong if able or to the best of my abilities.  Then I have to never do that again.  All of this for the love of Christ and Heavenly Father.

[Hoops22]

emeliza, on Nov 13 2007, 12:36 PM, said:

Actually He would start forgiving us when we are still in the repentance process as well.  But repentance is very hard so it is much easier if you can, not to mess up in the first place.  However He will always love us and accept us back.  He accepts us as His children even when we don't repent, but our eternal life will be different.

Not sure I can support this.  The process is done by God.  Allowing the process is a moments decision (Arminiam - shoot, I don't know how to spell it!!) I don't find it hard at all other than - one must be willing having one's humanistic view turn 180 degrees.  

Please note for all you professors (of which there are too many here)- I wrote 180 not 360

[thesometimesaint]

Hoops22:

God of course CAN do anything He wants. But I find no Scriptural evidence that He does.

[Hoops22]

emeliza, on Nov 13 2007, 12:38 PM, said:

to quit doing whatever it was (especially if it was addictive).

THATs hard work.  But has nothing to do with salvatory repentance.

Peter is a good example.

[Hoops22]

thesometimesaint, on Nov 13 2007, 12:41 PM, said:

Hoops22:

God of course CAN do anything He wants. But I find no Scriptural evidence that He does.

Really?

Genesis 6:7

7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthâ??men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airâ??for I am grieved that I have made them."

Judges 2:18
18 Whenever the LORD raised up a judge for them, he was with the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as long as the judge lived; for the LORD had compassion on them as they groaned under those who oppressed and afflicted them.

Acts 1:16
16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesusâ??

That's a start.  You see the sovereignty of God here.  He will do what He wishes.

[emeliza]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 03:40 PM, said:

Not sure I can support this.  The process is done by God.  Allowing the process is a moments decision (Arminiam - shoot, I don't know how to spell it!!) I don't find it hard at all other than - one must be willing having one's humanistic view turn 180 degrees.  

Please note for all you professors (of which there are too many here)- I wrote 180 not 360

I believe Christ said in Matthew that unless we forgive others we can not be forgiven.  The repentance process is about forgiveness.....especially forgiveness of ourselves.  So wouldn't the same hold true here?  If I did something bad and wouldn't forgive myself for that sin against myself......Christ might not forgive me if I don't forgive myself.

[bluebell]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

That's a start.  You see the sovereignty of God here.  He will do what He wishes.

This is a different point than TSS was making.

God can lie-but He won't, right?

God can be unjust, but He won't ever make that choice.

Saying there are some things that God won't do is not the same thing as denying His sovereignty or saying that there are some things He can't do.

[Hoops22]

emeliza, on Nov 13 2007, 12:49 PM, said:

I believe Christ said in Matthew that unless we forgive others we can not be forgiven.  The repentance process is about forgiveness.....especially forgiveness of ourselves.  So wouldn't the same hold true here?  If I did something bad and wouldn't forgive myself for that sin against myself......Christ might not forgive me if I don't forgive myself.

Of course Christ was preaching "The Kingdom" then.  The age of grace was ushered in at his death and his claim of God"ness" was proved at His resurrection.

No, His forgiveness is not dependent on our forgiving anyone.  When Christ was preaching He was preaching of a higher law yet to come at His death.

Salvatory repentance is conceding who we are and who He is.  Christian repentance is a continuous process - and in this respect I agree.   Your view would follow that any unrepented sin would cancel our salvation.  I can't speak for you but there are a bunch that I have not repented of - so am I in trouble?

[Hoops22]

bluebell, on Nov 13 2007, 12:50 PM, said:

This is a different point than TSS was making.

God can lie-but He won't, right?

God can be unjust, but He won't ever make that choice.

Saying there are some things that God won't do is not the same thing as denying His sovereignty or saying that there are some things He can't do.

No.

No.

Because He can not do what is not in his Nature.  It would be like asking me to jump like a frog (I could 30 pounds ago!!).

But it is in His nature to save us, therefor, he can save whom He will.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:28 PM, said:

I don't know.

You are making the assertion that repentance is a work.  Define work and tell me how it is.

This is quite juvenile, but I have to tell you "I asked first."

[Hoops22]

LifeOnaPlate, on Nov 13 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

This is quite juvenile, but I have to tell you "I asked first."

How so?   You are making the positive assertion.

In this context, any thing done by us that adds to the salvatory process/event.

[Rob Osborn]

The parable focuses on the state of mankind and the rejoicing over sinners who repent and turn back to god. As it is applied to us and the atonement, we all are at some point the prodigal son. In other phrases and parables Christ refers to us as the "lost sheep" who he came into the world to save. Lost sheep are equated to being "sinners". The "lost sheep" and the "prodigal son" are the same people- us! At some point in life I feel that all of us, either briefly or apparently indefinatley get "lost" and need Christ to redeem us from our lost state. The lost state we end up in here in mortality is a spiritually dead condition or a spiritually fallen condition. The way the atonement applies here is that no matter how far we stray and get lost we can always come back and Christ will forgive us as long as we are willing to be humble and obedient to his commands. So will the prodigal son reap eternal life in the end? Let me ask all of you this- Will all of you sinners hope to reap eternal life in the end? Will you  be glad to repent and come back into the fold of Christ and be joyous when Christ is there with the fatted calf in your behalf?

I think then it is simple, it does not matter where we are all in life as long as we are working towards our salvation. Everyone of us makes different decisions and accepts the truth under different circumstances. It is true that some are more diligent than others but all will recieve eternal life in the end- salvation the greatest gift. The difference will be however that the sooner you get on the path the better off you feel and will be in the end whereas the procrastinators will be not as far along but will still be on the same path having also been given eternal life.

And no, Christ will not nor cannot save the people who choose not to repent!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:35 PM, said:

I would disagree.  I think the ultimate question becomes "CAN God save us when we refuse to repent."

I believe there is evidence that He does/can.  Rhino can speak to it better than I since I am not sold yet.  Still the evidence is there.

Why doesn't he then? When he tried to gather the people to His gospel, Christ lamented that they would not be gathered:

Quote

   O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37).

Why didn't Christ gather them in?

Hoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:59 PM, said:

In this context, any thing done by us that adds to the salvatory process/event.

Does repentance "add to" anything, is it a requirement?

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 13 November 2007 - 12:59 PM.

[Hoops22]

Rob Osborn, on Nov 13 2007, 12:59 PM, said:

as long as we are willing to be humble and obedient to his commands.

Did the father forgive the son before our after this?