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The Parable Of The Prodigal Son


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#1 bluebell

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:59 AM

In another thread, the topic of the prodigal son and salvation kept coming up, and there were quite a few different ideas about whether or not the prodigal son would receive exaltation, or simply salvation...

This is one of my favorite parables, and i really do love the treatment that Talmage gives it in his book, "Jesus the Christ".

11 �¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:
  12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
  13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
  14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
  15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
  16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
  17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my fatherâ??s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
  18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
  19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
  20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
  21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
  22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
  23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
  24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
  25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
  26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
  27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
  28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
  29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
  30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
  31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
  32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.


Some of the things that Talmage says about the prodigal son-

"The demand of the younger son for a portion of the patrimony, even during his father's lifetime, is an instance of deliberate and unfilial desertion;"

"Adversity came upon him and proved to be a more effective minister for good than pleasure had been.  He was reduced to the lowest and most menial service, that of herding swine, which occupation, to a Jew, was the extreme of degradation."

"He, the son of honorable parentage, was feeding pigs and eating with them,...  He realized not alone his abject foolishness in leaving his father's well-spread table to batten with hogs, but the unrighteousness of his selfish desertion; he was not only remorseful but repentant."

"The father became aware of the prodigal's approach and hastened to meet him....  It is noteworthy that in his contrite confession he did not ask to be accepted as a hired servant as he had resolved to do; the father's joy was too sacred to be thus marred, he would please his father best by placing himself unreservedly at that father's disposal."

Talmage, at this point in discussing the parable, moves to the faithful son's reaction to his wayward brother's return and says this-

"We are not justified in extolling the virtue of the repentance on the part of the prodigal above the faithful, plodding service of his brother, who had remained at home, true to the duties required of him.  The devoted son was the heir; the father did not disparage his worth, nor deny his deserts.  His displeasure over the rejoicing incident to the return of his wayward brother was an exhibition of illiberality and narrowness; but of the two brothers the elder was the more faithful, whatever his minor defects may have been."

In closing, on this parable, talmage remarks-

"There is no justification for the inference that a repentant sinner is to be given precedence over a righteous soul who had resisted sin; were such the way of God, then Christ, the one sinless Man, would be surpassed in the Father's esteem by regenerate offenders."

I am wondering how others interpret this parable-especially others not of the LDS faith.

Please share your thoughts...


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#2 BCSpace

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:27 AM

Quote

We are not justified in extolling the virtue of the repentance on the part of the prodigal above the faithful, plodding service of his brother

He sure makes it sound like such a chore (which is a dangerous thought).

I believe that to deny the possibility of salvation in the highest degree in this case denies the concept of repentence.  However, I think D&C 130:19 certainly applies and the faithful "plodding" son will have a better overall reward.

The danger here is thinking one can sample the sins of the world and easily make it back.  From what I've seen in the life examples of others, the prodigal was very lucky indeed to make it back.
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#3 LifeOnaPlate

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:06 AM

There is a remarkable book by Millett on the parable of the prodigal son.

One of my favorite things about the parable is how each of us can be represented by any of the characters at any point in our lives. At any given time I might represent a father waiting patiently with no grudges, I could be a jealous brother, I could be a wallowing prodigal; I feel I've been all.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

#4 LifeOnaPlate

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:14 AM

View PostBCSpace, on Nov 13 2007, 10:27 AM, said:


I believe that to deny the possibility of salvation in the highest degree in this case denies the concept of repentence.  However, I think D&C 130:19 certainly applies and the faithful "plodding" son will have a better overall reward.

YOU'RE the prodigal son, BC. And what's with this "greater reward?" That notion as you have expressed it runs contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ as I understand it. I remember another parable about laborers in the vineyard. Elder Oaks has somewhat to say concerning the "reward" interpretation:

Quote

We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors.

Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to "add water"--the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition--even in the eleventh hour--these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard.

This parable teaches us that we should never give up hope and loving associations with family members and friends whose fine qualities evidence their progress toward what a loving Father would have them become. Similarly, the power of the Atonement and the principle of repentance show that we should never give up on loved ones who now seem to be making many wrong choices (Dallin H. Oaks, "The Challenge To Become," General Conference, Oct. 2000).

Quote

The danger here is thinking one can sample the sins of the world and easily make it back.  From what I've seen in the life examples of others, the prodigal was very lucky indeed to make it back.
I agree; and you're the prodigal, too.

Quote

"...when the vision of our minds is opened to behold the immaculate purity, perfection, light, beauty, and glory of Zion, the heaven of eternity, the place where Saints and angels dwell in the eternal worlds, then salvation for us poor erring mortals seems almost impossible; it seems that we shall hardly be saved. This, however, is verily true, we shall hardly be saved. There never was any person over saved; all who have been saved, and that ever will be in the future, are only just saved, and then it is not without a struggle to overcome, that calls into exercise every energy of the soul. (Brigham Young, JD 2:132)

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 13 November 2007 - 11:14 AM.

"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

#5 emeliza

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:24 AM

I think the story has so many meanings within.  I also think at many times we are both brothers.  Sometimes we act as the younger brother and sometimes we act as the older brother.  Both characters have flaws so even if we are the one that stays with Heavenly Father, we must be careful of our pride and bitterness.  The older brother seems to be of the opinion that his younger brother got the better end of the deal because he went out and partied and was still welcomed home.  The younger brother did go out and party, but look at how bad his life got while he was gone.  

I would hate to think that my inheritance is gone because of earlier transgressions that I have fully repented of.   I do agree that I have consequences from my actions, but I live with those each day.  I think my sins are washed clean now and I will not have eternal consequences to my actions so long as I truly am repentant (meaning I don't continue to walk back into my sins).  

Anyway, both characters stories talk of the same thing....humility.  Whether we walk with the Lord the whole time or we stray and come back, we are to be humble.  I personally would rather work on my humility walking with the Lord than away from Him.
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#6 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:58 AM

The prodigal son had to be changed from the inside, his human view, if you will.  The other son did all the right things (in humanistic terms) yet is not changed.  To me, this is another passage that exhibits that God will "draw near to Me whom I will."

It is clear that this passage negates the factor of works.

#7 cdowis

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:01 PM

The prodigal went home and his father welcomed him.  

But one unanswered question, did he actually repent?  Do we actually see forgiveness here or just joy to see him back in the household.

Did the father restore him back to his previous state.

Edited by cdowis, 13 November 2007 - 12:02 PM.


#8 fatherofone

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:02 PM

View Postemeliza, on Nov 13 2007, 10:24 AM, said:

I think the story has so many meanings within.  I also think at many times we are both brothers.  Sometimes we act as the younger brother and sometimes we act as the older brother.  Both characters have flaws so even if we are the one that stays with Heavenly Father, we must be careful of our pride and bitterness.  The older brother seems to be of the opinion that his younger brother got the better end of the deal because he went out and partied and was still welcomed home.  The younger brother did go out and party, but look at how bad his life got while he was gone.  

I would hate to think that my inheritance is gone because of earlier transgressions that I have fully repented of.   I do agree that I have consequences from my actions, but I live with those each day.  I think my sins are washed clean now and I will not have eternal consequences to my actions so long as I truly am repentant (meaning I don't continue to walk back into my sins).  

Anyway, both characters stories talk of the same thing....humility.  Whether we walk with the Lord the whole time or we stray and come back, we are to be humble.  I personally would rather work on my humility walking with the Lord than away from Him.
so does the story mean that no matter how bad we are we can always come back and will be accepted?
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#9 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:05 PM

View Postfatherofone, on Nov 13 2007, 12:02 PM, said:

so does the story mean that no matter how bad we are we can always come back and will be accepted?

Among other things, yes.  God is much bigger than our puny sins, even our huge ones.  I like to think of God as big enough to draw to Him any one He wishes.

#10 thesometimesaint

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:08 PM

Hoops22:

Even against their wishes?

#11 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:13 PM

View Postthesometimesaint, on Nov 13 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

Hoops22:

Even against their wishes?

I don't even know how to wrap my arms around that question.  Why would you think He could not?  Do you think God would draw someone kicking and screaming into His company?  God can not change our hearts?  The very heart ("heart" in the classical sense) He created?

I don't understand.  You are imposing your humanistic view on One who clearly operates on another "plane".   "Arbitrary" may be your next claim, but an invalid one.  "Arbitrariness" implies a standard that you have determined for One greater than you.  Rather presumptous don't you think?

Not being snotty - at least trying not to be.  Moving furniture today so I'm sore, hungry, and short tempered.  Seems like a lot of folks here move furniture every day.  

#12 LifeOnaPlate

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:13 PM

View PostHoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

It is clear that this passage negates the factor of works.

I completely disagree. I don't see the father going out and carrying the prodigal home while the prodigal does nothing; I see a prodigal making an effort to return home.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

#13 bluebell

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:14 PM

View PostHoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

The prodigal son had to be changed from the inside, his human view, if you will.  The other son did all the right things (in humanistic terms) yet is not changed.  To me, this is another passage that exhibits that God will "draw near to Me whom I will."

It is clear that this passage negates the factor of works.
I get the opposite here hoops-

For one thing, it's clear that the faithful son retains his inheritance-all that the father has is his.

How is that possible if the works of the faithful son have nothing to do with gaining this inheritance and this son is only doing the right things on the outside but is not 'right' on the inside-is not 'changed'?


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#14 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:14 PM

View PostLifeOnaPlate, on Nov 13 2007, 12:13 PM, said:

I completely disagree. I don't see the father going out and carrying the prodigal home while the prodigal does nothing; I see a prodigal making an effort to return home.

After repentance.  Would the father gone to get the son if he knew he had repented?

#15 LifeOnaPlate

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:15 PM

View PostHoops22, on Nov 13 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

After repentance.  Would the father gone to get the son if he knew he had repented?

Repentance is a work?

Or does God repent for us?
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

#16 LifeOnaPlate

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:17 PM

View Postfatherofone, on Nov 13 2007, 12:02 PM, said:

so does the story mean that no matter how bad we are we can always come back and will be accepted?


Read my post above. I slightly address this question.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

#17 thesometimesaint

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:18 PM

Hoops22:

In the Judgment there are clearly those that reject the Lord. Does God force them into Heaven?

#18 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:20 PM

View PostLifeOnaPlate, on Nov 13 2007, 12:15 PM, said:

Repentance is a work?

Or does God repent for us?

Yes, defining "work" would prove useful.  I never thought of repentance as a work.  

No.  We must agree to making "the change".  Now, whether God draws us to that change in a Calvinist way or not is another discussion, but regardless, I don't see repentance as a work.


View Postthesometimesaint, on Nov 13 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

Hoops22:

In the Judgment there are clearly those that reject the Lord. Does God force them into Heaven?


Calvinist= He has not drawn them to Him.

Arminian = They have not made a "decision" for Christ.

Does that answer it?  I'm not sure where you're headed.

#19 thesometimesaint

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:23 PM

Hoops22:

Don't overdo the moving of furniture. It's hard on the body.

You are lucky. Repentance has always been hard work for me.

#20 Hoops22

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:25 PM

View Postthesometimesaint, on Nov 13 2007, 12:23 PM, said:

Repentance has always been hard work for me.


That's interesting.  Explain.

Bear in mind there are really two repentance "forces" at work here.


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