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Bob Betts

Universal Apostasy Or Not?

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From Priesthood to Priestcraft (Part 3)

In his third epistle, the Apostle John wrote that Diotrephes, a local church leader "who loveth to have the preeminence," would not receive him. He writes of Diotrephes "prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church" (3 John 1:9-10). This passage represents the first recorded instance in the New Testament where priestcrafts are forcefully imposed by apostate elements within the Church, with obedient saints being excommunicated by apostate leaders. After the Apostles were gone, these apostate elements eventually became dominant within the church.

Of priesthood authority, the Apostle Paul writes: â??no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaronâ? (Hebrews 5:4). The apostles had also strictly forbidden the buying and selling of priesthood powers (Acts 8:14-24). Yet in the fourth century, the emporer Constantine, himself not yet even a Christian, claimed for himself the power to appoint Christian bishops. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, writes that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased from among Christiandom: â??We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found.â? Eusebius, writing in the fourth century, knew of only one person by the mid-second century who possessed the gift of prophecy-a man named Quadratus (Eusebius 3.37.1) In 325 AD, the Council of Nicea â??crystallized Christian orthodoxy with the arm of secular tyranny.â?[9] There is not a single example of a forced conversion in the New Testament, yet this became the norm in the apostate Church as entire nations were â??convertedâ? through the decree of rulers or by external force.

The Book of Mormon prophet Mormon wrote of a similar apostasy which occurred among his own people in the ancient Americas. By 210 AD, â??there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness. And this church did multiply exceedingly because of iniquity, and because of the power of Satan who did get hold upon their heartsâ? (4 Nephi 1:27-28). Centuries prior, the Book of Mormon prophet Alma had previously told an apostate who sought to impose his views by force that â??were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destructionâ? (Alma 1:12). Almaâ??s prophetic words were later fulfilled when apostasy and priestcrafts led to the destruction of the Nephite civilization. Book of Mormon prophets foresaw that in modern times, many churches would be built up to â??get power over the flesh,â? to â??become popular in the eyes of the world,â? to â??seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world,â? and to â??do all manner of iniquityâ? (1 Nephi 22:23).

The destructive nature of priestcraft â??enforced by the swordâ? is also seen in the history of the apostate church of the Eastern hemisphere. Between 100 AD and the great schism in 1054 AD, at least 222,000 Christians were killed by the apostate Church.[10] After the Schism, over 5,170,000 other Christians were killed by the persecutions of the Roman Catholic church alone, in addition to millions of Muslims, Jews, and pagans killed by Christians through religious wars and persecution. Remembering the New Testament churches that the Lord stated he would â??cast offâ? if they did not repent speedily (Revelation 2&3) for sins that pale in comparison to the atrocities of the apostate Christian church, it would be difficult to seriously believe that a just, eternal, and unchanging God would continue to guide and direct the fallen church. Many historians and bible scholars acknowledge as much. In a work prepared by seventy-three noted theologians and Bible students, we read: "...we must not expect to see the Church of Holy Scripture actually existing in its perfection on the earth. It is not to be found, thus perfect, either in the collected fragments of Christendom, or still less in any one of these fragments."[11]

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It matters if the statement in Preach My Gospel is true. I'm just going by what it says: "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth."Apparently no men remained on the earth with the authority, since it was taken from the earth with the Apostle's death.

They withdrew from Zarahemla, but their callings were to "all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people" (3 Nephi 28:29 and D&C 7:3).

No, it's not. We know, according to the BoM and the D&C, where they went ("all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people") and what they did ("they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.")

Since your scripture says that four guys stayed and exercised authority, I can't see how "mankind's access to them was taken" when all four of them were called to go to "all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people."

That may be what your church tells you, but that doesn't square with Christ calling on all four of them in D&C 7:2 and 3 Nephi 28:9: bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

This doesn't address my OP question. I don't see that a universal apostasy can be claimed base on your scriptures about the four priesthood authorities.

I think my presentation of what their specific callings were, where they were to go, and that they would do so until the return of Christ, from your scriptures, completely contradicts your assessment.

I'm sorry you aren't making sense to me. I'm simply going by what I'm reading in your scriptures, which contradicts the universal apostasy claim.

Bob, this has been asked and answered. Simply repeating your charges does not make your interpretation any more credible, nor does it make the answers you've received any less so.

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Apostasy Recognized By Reformationists (Part 4)

Many of the early Protestant reformationists recognized that a universal apostasy had occurred. Early Anabaptist reformer Thomas Muntzer believed that â??the Christian church lost its virginity and became an adulteress soon after the death of the disciples of the apostles because of corrupt leadership, manifested in the predominance of a clergy who cared more for the amassing of property and power than for the acquiring of spiritual virtues.â?[12] Reformer Sebastian Franck believed that the â??outward church of Christ was wasted immediately after the apostles because the early Fathers, whom he calls â??wolvesâ?? and â??anti-christsâ??, justified war, power of magistracy, tithes, the priesthood, etc.â?[13] That they are â??wolvesâ? within Christâ??s flock, Franck states, is â??proved by their works, especially [those] of Clement [of Alexandria], Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Hilary, Cyril, Origen, and others which are merely childâ??s play and quite unlike the spirit of the apostles, that is, filled with commandments, laws, sacramental elements and all kinds of human inventions.â?[14] Roger Williams (1604-1683), pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America at Providence, Rhode Island, gave up his ministry on the grounds that "there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking."[15] He noted that "the apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."[16] John Wesley (1703-1791), the founder of Methodism, stated that from the time of Constantine, â??The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Churchâ?¦The Christians were turned heathens again, and only had earth a dead form left."[17]

Dr. Harry Emerson Fos**** (1878-1969), an eminent American Baptist clergyman and author, wrote: "Christianity today has largely left the religion which he preached, taught and lived, and has substituted another kind of religion altogether. If Jesus should come back to now, hear the mythologies built up around him, see the creedalism, denominationalism, sacramentalism, carried on in his name, he would certainly say, 'If this is Christianity, I am not a Christian.'"[18] One prominent historian stated, "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the Church."[19]

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The Restoration (Part 5)

God and Jesus Christ restored the Church of Jesus Christ in modern times through the young prophet Joseph Smith. The power of the priesthood and the offices of the primitive church, including the apostleship, were restored to earth. Through ongoing revelation, Christ directs His church today just as in ancient times. â??The power of God unto salvationâ? (Romans 1:16 ) is absent from all but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which the Lord himself has proclaimed to be â??the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earthâ? (D&C 1:30 ).

Just as the early apostles foresaw the apostasy, the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ before the Savior would return to judge the earth was also foreseen. The Savior taught: â??Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted upâ? (Matthew 15:13). Only Christâ??s church will stand in the eternities. Those who know and follow the Saviorâ??s voice come unto Him in His restored church. Only in this church can we receive the full teachings of the gospel, Christâ??s words today through modern prophets and apostles, and the ordinances of salvation necessary for eternal life.

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The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

You need a min of 12...a quorum. I have seen a lot of post talking about what "you" said. Who are you?

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The bottom line is that Mr. Betts cannot move beyond the absolutist outlook that plagues fundamentalists of all stripes. There is black and there is white, with nothing in between. There is is right answer and a wrong answer, and no room for nuance. Mr. Betts' original premise and his subsequent comments betray his inability to see anything beyond the literal. According to this logic, the presence of 4 priesthood holders = no apostasy, despite the fact that 99.99999999+% of the world, millions of God's children, remained in spiritual dakrness.

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According to Preach My Gospel:

But, according to D&C 7:1-3: So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

Further, in verse 23, it is confirmed that the three priesthood-holding Nephites were busy building up the church: The dates at the bottom of these pages is A.D. 34-35.

Again, following a time when the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not, then

They will do great and Marvelous works, even among the Gentiles (vs. 30-32). And, anyone who doesn't hearken unto their words, Christ will not receive at the last day (vs. 34-35).

Now, in the land of Zarahemla, (Mormon 1:13) the beloved disciples were taken away because "wickedness did prevail," and their work "did cease because of the iniquity of the people." The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 322. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In the final BoM account of those "disciples of Jesus," Mormon and Moroni were ministered to by them: The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 401. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

It would be a matter of station given to him as he lived on and on when all the others died and corruption covered the church. He wasn't the 12 all in one person. He couldn't call others. That wasn't what he asked to do. He didn't ask to continue the church, but rather to continue to bring souls to Christ. Do we know if he was influential in the restoration? as in influencing Martin Luther? Or others of other churches who were remember even now because they gave great things to mankind via perhaps a meeting with John?

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Bob,

FYI, your site is junk. It wouldn't even let me register.

Did you preemptively ban me already?

PacMan

Same thing happened to me. He told me he would fix it, but I'm still waiting.

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They withdrew from Zarahemla, but their callings were to "all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people" (3 Nephi 28:29 and D&C 7:3).

This doesn't address my OP question. I don't see that a universal apostasy can be claimed base on your scriptures about the four priesthood authorities.

I think my presentation of what their specific callings were, where they were to go, and that they would do so until the return of Christ, from your scriptures, completely contradicts your assessment.

I'm sorry you aren't making sense to me. I'm simply going by what I'm reading in your scriptures, which contradicts the universal apostasy claim.

No Bob you are trying to brush off my answer, that is not what the passage says here read it again:
(Mormon 1:13-14) "But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people. And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief."
Again it does not refer to Zarahemla, it says the face of the whole land! You could argue that it does not say the whole world, but it plainly states that the Nephites and Lamanites had become apostate. It also sets the conditions in which they (John and the three Nephites) can minister, and when they are withdrawn (because of wickedness and unbelief which is by definition apostacy.) So don't try to wrest "our" modern day scriptures the way you wrest the scriptures of the Bible. As for D&C 7 it also states this:
(D&C 7:6-7) "Yea, he (John) has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth. And I will make thee (Peter) to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come."
Did you get that? It does not give the time period in which John will minister, and it says that Peter, James and John "will have the keys of this ministry until I come." Now Peter, James, and John (the three in this scripture who were given the keys) gave the same keys to the Prophet Joseph Smith in June of 1829 about two months after this revelation was given to the Prophet. The apostacy was gradual but it was complete and no amount of pulling quotes out of context from "our" scriptures and placing your own false conclusion on them will prove otherwise.

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Since the term "universal apostasy" doesn't appear in any of the sources you quote, you are going to have to define it before we can really go anywhere besides in circles. What "universal apostasy" means to you may not mean the same thing to Mormonism.

It is, on the first line of page 36 of Preach My Gospel.

I'm only going by how it's described on page 35 of Preach My Gospel.

The same section of the Doctrine and Covenants that gives the reasons for organizing the church mentions bringing it out of obscurity and darkness.

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church,
and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness
, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individuallyâ??"

- D&C 1:30

But, this doesn't answer my OP question regarding the four priesthood authority's callings in LDS scripture, contradicting an alleged apostasy that was supposed to have occured after the Apostle's deaths, taking that authority from the earth.
Personally, I like to think that it's referring to occultism, whose name means "hidden", as it's one of my interests. In any event, that's where you can start looking.
Doesn't answer my question, though.

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Well technically aren't the 3 Nephites and Apostle John translated beings. They're no longer living in the same sense we are.

No, not translated, transfigured. Just prior to exercizing their priesthood authority.

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Were they killed?

No, their calling was until Christ returns. 3 Nephi 28:37-40 explains their physical change.

When they were translated. Doesn't that imply that they were killed by God and changed to be able to live on Earth until Jesus comes for the second time.

They weren't translated or killed. Read 3 Nephi 28.

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No, their calling was until Christ returns. 3 Nephi 28:37-40 explains their physical change.

They weren't translated or killed. Read 3 Nephi 28.

The question was mostly rhetorical but thanks for the clarification.

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Edit: Serious answer - For the purposes of the narrative, yes.

Huh?
3 Nepni 28:7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

D&C 7:2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

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I don't know. Does "translation" involve dying? I seem to recall a JS statement to that effect.

They were transfigured. No dying, no killing, no death. Temporarily transfigured.

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Hey thanks T-Shirt. I always appreciate people clearing things up.

While we are clearing things up, isn't The Apostle John busy preparing the remaining lost tribes of Israel for the second coming of Christ. Which could imply a wide range of people or if you believe they are in a hole in the north pole it could imply a very isolated group of people.

It also means there was no universal apostasy of LDS priesthood authority.

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It also means there was no universal apostasy of LDS priesthood authority.

Your getting better at these one line answers. :P Good job.

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It also means there was no universal apostasy of LDS priesthood authority.

Bob,

Lightbearers post totaly destroyed your argument. I know you dont see it this way. But that is to bad. You cannot argue it any more. The scriptures that Lightbearer gave spacifically give qualifications that when wickedness prevails the servants will not be found. Lets try this. IF 4 people had the priesthood on the earth and were not allowed to preach until the time of JS what good what that priesthood do that those 4 carried? Accrouding to our scritpures the qualification must be met. As has been said before there can only be some speculation as to what the 4 priesthood holders were doing for the past 1500 years. No volume of scripture I have read have given any d etails.

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and what they did ("they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.")

Bob, I have pointed this out to you already. I don't know if you missed it or ignored it. You have to read more than two verses. The baptizing and bringing people to the church was done while the church was still on the earth, before the apostasy was complete. When the people became too wicked and unbelieving, they no longer baptized, but were taken from among the people. The work they did from that time forward was done in anonymity, they were no longer known to the world. Why? Because the world was in apostasy. The organization of the Church no longer existed.

Now, you can continue to repeat yourself all you want, but it will get you nowhere. The answer has been given and it is perfectly logical and sound. Your proof-texting from LDS scripture is not working.

T-Shirt

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A few comments on this topic and this thread.

1. I think that some of the posts on this thread -- especially the guy with his head up...between his legs -- serves our message board and Latter Day Saints poorly. I can only imagine how the quotes and image will be featured in future commentary on his message board, website and materials.

2. I believe the contradiction that Mr. Betts is attempting to make between translated apostles on the earth today and the idea of a total apostacy fall short.

They were not translated, they were transfigure.
Mr. Betts is setting up something of a strawman argument without complete information. The scripture does not say that John of the three Nephites will hold the keys of the priesthood or will be appointed to be the leaders of the Church.
Thank you for your opinion of me, but the LDS scripture DOES say that John was given the power and keys of Christ's mnistry (see D&C 7:7 below). And 3 Nephi 28:5-9 says that Christ granted the three, the same privilege as John.
3. A basic understanding of LDS theology makes that disctinction. If Mr. Betts examines LDS theology more deeply, he'd understand that we believe that having the priesthood...even being an apostle...is a far different thing than actually being appointed and annointed with the authorative keys to be the leader of the Church. There is no scriptural evidence that such keys (as required by the LDS understanding of priesthood authority) were conveyed to any of the immortal apostles.
D&C 7:5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved [John] has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

4. As someone who is now a Latter Day Saint who was raised in the Protestant tradition, I can testify that the apostacy is very real. I recognized it myself without any reference or knowledge of the LDS Church and its teachings on the subject. With no disrespect to Mr. Bett's sincere beliefs, traditional Christianity has lost its ways with false teachings such as the Trinity, lack of new scripture, false notions of the priesthood, baptism, the manner of salvation, etc. etc.
Your testimony is noted and respected. Your opinion is noted, respected and rejected.

Lastly, I hope that Mr. Betts will join us for many discussions.

Regards,

Six

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Bob,

Youâ??re getting, neigh, ridiculous.

This is quite simple, but Iâ??ll play your game. What do you mean exercise it? I donâ??t know if youâ??re doing it, but youâ??re confounding terms. If you mean influence for good, blessing, etc., yes thenâ?¦of course they exercised their priesthood. If you mean that they authorized their keys of presidency, then youâ??re just flat wrong.

In D&C 7:7, Jesus is alleged to have given to John, the power and keys of Christ's ministry. Isn't it your belief that your presidency has the power and keys of Christ's ministry? Or, does your presidency have something even more that the power and keys of Christ's ministry? When you think about Christ's ministry, doesn't that cover all the bases of ministry?
That being said, I donâ??t understand in the least what your question has anything with anything, nor what you think itâ??s supposed to prove.
Well, I've been explaining it through four pages, now. If you still don't get it, perhaps you should sit this one out.
That being saidâ?¦I must have missed what board you run. Are you an EV?
An evangelical follower of Christ? Yes.
Oh waitâ?¦another one.

Letâ??s think about thisâ?¦Christ has yet to return, so if they started working tomorrowâ?¦then the promise is still fulfilled, right?

No, they started in 34-35 A.D.. At least that's the date at the bottom of 3 Nephi 28.
Again, youâ??re grasping at logically incoherent straws that donâ??t exist.
Actually, I'm taking what your scripture and literature says, literally. (Is that a sin in Mormonism?)

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They were transfigured. No dying, no killing, no death. Temporarily transfigured.

The word is translated, not "transfigured." Peter, James and John were transfigured on the Mount. Later, John and the three Nephites were translated while Peter and James were resurrected.

Joseph Smith taught that "translated bodies are designed for future missions" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 191). For example, Moses and Elias (or Elijah) bestowed the keys of the priesthood on Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration before Christ inaugurated the resurrection (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 158). Because this bestowal is done by the laying on of physical hands, Moses and Elijah had to be blessed in such a way that they might retain their mortal bodies much longer than the normal life span. Similarly, John the Revelator (see John 21:20-23) and the three Nephite disciples (see 3 Nephi 28) were translated so that they could remain on earth and labor to prepare the world for Christ's second coming.
(Richard O. Cowan, Answers to Your Questions About the Doctrine and Covenants 14 (1996)
We all understand that John was translated; so that he would necessarily appear in his translated body, as the final change will not take place with him until after the second coming of the Savior. But Peter and James had both been executed as martyrs. Therefore they must have appeared in spirit form unless they had received their resurrection; and we have shown in a former lecture upon Priesthood that it is contrary to the order of heaven for spirit to minister to flesh to confer the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which was done by Peter and James in connection with John at the particular time mentioned. Hence we conclude that Peter and James did appear and minister to Joseph and others in their resurrected bodies.
(Joseph E Taylor, 1 Collected Discourses 128-144 (2 June 1888)

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Bob, is your main assertion that "Preach My Gospel" is slightly inaccurate/incomplete? Or are you claiming something stronger?

Do you believe that teaching tools for missionaries must be absolutely complete? In other words, why is this issue significant to you? There are numerous points where doctrine could be clarified. What makes this one special?

Thanks,

Zeta-Flux

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No, they started in 34-35 A.D.. At least that's the date at the bottom of 3 Nephi 28.

Actually, I'm taking what your scripture and literature says, literally. (Is that a sin in Mormonism?)

Bob

What does apostacy mean? I dont think you know judgeing from the first line that I left in your responce. Has Christ had His second comming yet Bob?I really cant add any more than what has been said. :P

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Bob,

FYI, your site is junk. It wouldn't even let me register.

Did you preemptively ban me already?

PacMan

No, we wait to ban people until AFTER they open their mouth, and deserve it. :P Contact Lloyd at [email protected], give him your username and password, and he'll make it so.

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