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Bob Betts

Universal Apostasy Or Not?

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Christ still called the apostate Temple "my Father's house." Even in apostasy, an element of righteousness can exist. I guess.

That is 100 percent correct, because the lord could not ever leave the entire earth in the hands of satans control, there was always a little preisthood at all times on the earth, And after some lengh of time this preisthood became distorted from the lack of Gods direction, at this time it was strictly in the hands of mortal man passing the authority on to one another, And eventually there were no more apostles or prophets after 401 a.d. That is a very long time in between 401 a.d and 1830 a.d. like about 1429 years!

i suppose that was way to short a span of time for an official apostasy? {according to betts}

:P

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Bob,

IT has been pointed out that preisthood keys and presiding authority through the preisthood are diffrent things. In other words ministering to poeple. Also it is ambigous at best with the current connon of scripture to come to any conclusion as to what John and the 3 Nephites were doing during the apostacy. It is possible that God commanded them to not preach or to ordain preists. Like I said it is pure speculation one way or another. Clearly you see this as some sort of false hood of the church. I do not.

My OP questions the Preach My Gospel claim, which appears incorrect in light of the Mormon scriptures I quoted about it. If the universal apostasy could only occur after the deaths of the Apostles, who held the priesthood keys and authority, but one Apostle never died, and three Nephites were given the same exact responsibilities as that Apostle, then the Preach My Gospel claim of a universal apostasy cannot be correct.
I believe JS is a true prophet, Tell me in the grand scheme of things what could I possible gain in knowing all of the details of JOhn and the 3 nephites over the past 1500 years of thier life?
The truth.

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Easy.

Yes...it's universal. Why? Because, the priesthood was taken FROM the earth, not OFF the earth. It is a semantic differences that is erroneously read in, and erroneously perpetuated.

Cheers,

PacMan

I am no longer going to post. You make me sick. 2 sentances and and you sum the whole thing up. Im not very good at this.

The truth.

The truth. Bob, what is the truth? You really think question about 3 nephites and the Apsotle John really matter. Really?

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I am no longer going to post. You make me sick.

:P

Pass the Pepto....

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Can you point us to the Apostle John and show us exactly what he has been presiding over?

Bringing souls to Christ (D&C 7:2), prophesying before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people (7:3), uniting as many to the church as would believe his preaching, baptising them in water and the HG (3 Nephi 28:18, 23).

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Bob Betts:

My OP questions the Preach My Gospel claim, which appears incorrect in light of the Mormon scriptures I quoted about it.

Now you're being disingenuous or haven't read my post. It's a very simple issue, and I'm sorry it's put rationale desire for "truth," in a twist.

PacMan

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It's true, because John and the three nephites, once they were no longer mortal, were also no longer presiding over the church that Christ set up on the earth.

How do you know this? Where is this stated?
To preside means, among other things, to act as the president or chairperson of an organization-and there is no mention of them any of these men being called to do that once they were immortal.
Then, it's the "other things" that preside means caused Christ to allow the four to exercise priesthodd authority in the salvation of men and the uniting of people to the church until Christ's return.
This was not what they were called to do and was not one of their responsibilities.
Perhaps, but the other things that they WERE responsible are just as valid priesthood callings as president or chairman. The point is, the priesthood authority was not taken from the earth, based on the LDS scriptures I quoted.

The statement is also true because it accurately describes the reason the apostasy came about-that it was the loss of the presiding leaders of the Christ's church and worthy priesthood holders that lead to that the priesthood vanishing from the earth and the apostasy of Christ's church.:P

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Reread 3 Nephi 28:18 and 23, and realize that they were granted to do what they were doing until Christ's return.

Those verses are referring to a time when the Church was still on the earth among the Nephites

But, there are also other verses I quoted, that they would bring souls to Christ, going to all the scattered tribes of Israel, nations, kindreds, tongues and people. So, leaving the land of Zarahemla didn't end their priesthood calling by a longshot.

Those same verses also mention that during this time the people they are ministering to, will not know them.

That's not the question.

Yet, it is very much applicable. We believe that there was an apostasy, meaning that the organization of Christ's Church along with it's presiding officers and authority was taken from the people. This has no bearing on whether John and the three Nephites were still on the earth or not. They certainly held priesthood authority and priesthood keys, but this authority and these keys were not for the purpose of establishing or presiding over an earthly church organization. After the apostasy, their mission was to minister to people on earth much like angels would. This can occur even if Christ's Church is not found on the earth.

Sure we do. I quoted them from 3 Nephi and D&C 7.

But you have not recognized that their responsibilities after the apostasy were different than they were while the Church was still on the earth.

But, that's wasn't my question, whether they presided over any one church.

But that is a key factor. If there is no one duly appointed to preside over Christ's Church, apostasy occurs. Since neither John, nor the three Nephites were to preside over an earthly organization, the apostasy came.

Only if priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The existence of the four, having the power and keys of Christ's ministry, refutes that claim.

No it doesn't, as I have explained above.

I disagree. I itemized from 3 Nephi, what their roles were. We know exactly what they were doing. See above, or reread 3 Nephi 28.

I think that maybe you don't fully understand how we define the apostasy. Hopefully this post will help clear it up a little.

My best,

T-Shirt

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Easy.

Yes...it's universal. Why? Because, the priesthood was taken FROM the earth, not OFF the earth. It is a semantic differences that is erroneously read in, and erroneously perpetuated.

Cheers,

PacMan

But the four were exercising their priesthood authority and keys. If it was taken FROM the earth, how could the four exercise it?

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The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

Do you have any evidence that any person was given the priesthood or baptized by John in the 2nd century or the 5th century, or the 11th century. If you can not cite names, then I think the LDS position is sustained. Nice try at mixing apples and oranges.

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That is 100 percent correct, because the lord could not ever leave the entire earth in the hands of satans control, there was always a little preisthood at all times on the earth, And after some lengh of time this preisthood became distorted from the lack of Gods direction, at this time it was strictly in the hands of mortal man passing the authority on to one another, And eventually there were no more apostles or prophets after 401 a.d. That is a very long time in between 401 a.d and 1830 a.d. like about 1429 years!

i suppose that was way to short a span of time for an official apostasy? {according to betts}

:P

So, when Christ PROMISED the four that they would live on and bring souls to Christ until His return, what happened to that promise?

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When we remember that John and the 3 Nephites are translated beings. That they held the priesthood but did not ordain anyone with it as far as we know, I don't see a problem here. How they have used the priesthood during these years is not known. What is clear is that the priesthood was not found among mortal men during the apostasy period. NO valid ordinations, baptisms or anything else occurred. So practically speaking, the priesthood was taken from the earth. I fully believe that Bob knows this to be the LDS position and what is meant in "Preach My Gospel" but he is just trying to be cute.

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So, when Christ PROMISED the four that they would live on and bring souls to Christ until His return, what happened to that promise?

His return started in 1830. :P

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I am no longer going to post. You make me sick. 2 sentances and and you sum the whole thing up. Im not very good at this.

The truth. Bob, what is the truth?

Interesting question. Pilate asked Jesus that question in John 18:38
You really think question about 3 nephites and the Apsotle John really matter. Really?

If truth matters, and Smith wasn't telling it, and millions have been misled as the result, then yes, it REALLY matters.

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Interesting question. Pilate asked Jesus that question in John 18:38

To the best of my knowledge Jesus never answered.

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Interesting question. Pilate asked Jesus that question in John 18:38

If truth matters, and Smith wasn't telling it, and millions have been misled as the result, then yes, it REALLY matters.

:P

Bob, i know you really seem to beleive yer on to something hear? But you are not listening or making any kind of rational desicions whatsoever, either that or you refuse to let your mind understand the obvious?

<_<

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:P

Bob, i know you really seem to beleive yer on to something hear? But you are not listening or making any kind of rational desicions whatsoever, either that or you refuse to let your mind understand the obvious?

<_<

Bob knows the LDS posiiton on this. So he tries to lawyer it by finding some technical problem with it. Though John and the 3 Nephites have held the priesthood, how they have used it is not known. What is known is that there is no indication in any LDS sources, official or not, that during the apostasy period, these 4 ordained anyone to the priesthood or administered the ordiances like baptism and confirmation. Perhaps these 4 gave people priesthood blessings but even that does not change the LDS stance on the apostasy. Bob claims is found in a lot of anti places and might work with complete idiots who know nothing about LDS doctrine but can not work here where people do have more than a few brain cells working.

Add On: If there is any proof that one needs that Bob would have been a Pharisee if he lived in Jesus day, this is it. He is trying to look for some technical problem and not really address what the the issue is really about.

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Bob,

I think you have been adequately answered but I will give it a crack as well.

Your misunderstanding what we mean by apostasy. The world was in a state where the church of Jesus Christ with the Priesthood authority could not thrive. It didn't matter that some men remained on the earth that Christ gave authority too. We read in the BOM that when wickedness came they withdrew. This is about as much as we know. When Christ took the authority from the earth mankind's access to them was taken. The church as a functional unit built on the foundation of apostles and prophets no longer existed.

It's the same reason why the church was restored in a land and time and in the precise moment it could be. The reformation paved way for the restoration as you've probable heard. The church may not have survived in the climate before 1830.

Also, I would think someone choosing to dwell on earth until the second coming of Christ has a little different calling then a mere mortal man would. We do not have enough information to know exactly what this is.

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So in light of all this, isn't it inappropriate for missionaries to tell investigators "the Apostles were all killed"?

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My OP questions the Preach My Gospel claim, which appears incorrect in light of the Mormon scriptures I quoted about it. If the universal apostasy could only occur after the deaths of the Apostles, who held the priesthood keys and authority, but one Apostle never died, and three Nephites were given the same exact responsibilities as that Apostle, then the Preach My Gospel claim of a universal apostasy cannot be correct.

Since the term "universal apostasy" doesn't appear in any of the sources you quote, you are going to have to define it before we can really go anywhere besides in circles. What "universal apostasy" means to you may not mean the same thing to Mormonism.

The same section of the Doctrine and Covenants that gives the reasons for organizing the church mentions bringing it out of obscurity and darkness.

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church,
and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness
, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individuallyâ??"

- D&C 1:30

Personally, I like to think that it's referring to occultism, whose name means "hidden", as it's one of my interests. In any event, that's where you can start looking.

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So in light of all this, isn't it inappropriate for missionaries to tell investigators "the Apostles were all killed"?

Well technically aren't the 3 Nephites and Apostle John translated beings. They're no longer living in the same sense we are.

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Well technically aren't the 3 Nephites and Apostle John translated beings. They're no longer living in the same sense we are.

Were they killed?

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When they were translated. Doesn't that imply that they were killed by God and changed to be able to live on Earth until Jesus comes for the second time.

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Were they killed?

They had the ill fortune to be traveling with the Buddha one day, and came upon a practitioner of Zen.

Edit: Serious answer - For the purposes of the narrative, yes.

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