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wenglund

What Is The Solution?

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On several threads there has been a smattering of discussion about what it would take to resolve the general animus between apologists and critics, as well as between member and non-member. In one of those discussion, TJane took a step in the right direction by asking critics: "What solution are you looking for?"

Another way of asking this question is: "what is your desired outcome?" or "what do you need from the other party?" or "what would bring you peace and happiness"?

I think it would be good to learn how the critics and former members answer these questions for themselves (not to be confused with apologists or members answering for them).

And, I think it good to learn what how the apologists or members answer these same questions for themselves (not to be confused with critics and former members answering for them).

What say you?

(I think it would also help this discussion were each of us to read thoughtfully what may be said by either side, and not react defensively, keeping in mind that the intent of this thread isn't to judge, accuse, and point fingers or debate opposing views or convert others to our respective ways of thinking or even defend our respective positions, but rather to get clarity and better understand the opposing view and to find that which will make us each better people and improve our relations. This will require getting more into a listening and empathy mode and being flexible.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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wenglund:

Good feelings are always good. But my question is to what end? At least here at MADB the Apologists and Critics know the issues, and the arguments for both sides. Do we just agree to disagree or do we actively and passionately advocate for our side of the issues? Or maybe I just do not understanding your question.

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wenglund:

Good feelings are always good. But my question is to what end? At least here at MADB the Apologists and Critics know the issues, and the arguments for both sides. Do we just agree to disagree or do we actively and passionately advocate for our side of the issues? Or maybe I just do not understanding your question.

I am glad you asked.

I value healthy and even vigorous debate and discussion, and I have no desire to stiffle that here or elsewhere. It is just that I believe there are functional and edifying ways of having such debates/discussions, and there is the opposite. From my lengthy experience in the apologist-vs-critic arena, the latter seems mostly, if not inevitably, to have been the case. There are a variety of reasons for this, and what I am attempting to do here is to reverse the trend. What I would like to see is far less mutually degrading rancor, and far more mutually uplifting dialogue--or as Brent Metcalfe might put it, "generate less heat and more light". I would like to see things change from a counterproductive whine, complain, and blame-fests, to productive mediation and effectual conflict resolution.

Does that help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On several threads there has been a smattering of discussion about what it would take to resolve the general animus between apologists and critics, as well as between member and non-member. In one of those discussion, TJane took a step in the right direction by asking critics: "What solution are you looking for?"

As a non-member on a "pro" site, 'resolving the general animus' isn't a reason to be here. Since I'm married to a member, I'm here to appreciate my wife's faith from the best perspective of other members. Trying this at home is NOT a reasonable idea in combining a bunch of teenage girls who seem to be raised with different rules, etc.

Another way of asking this question is: "what is your desired outcome?"

Understanding in why she believes what she does.

or "what do you need from the other party?"

I keep hoping for understanding of my faith from her, but....... :P

or "what would bring you peace and happiness"?

I'm content with my situation now, but my wife isn't since she can't get married in the temple. IMO, the only thing that will bring her ultimate peace and happiness would be my conversion. Hmmm....Not quite agreeing on this one.

And, I think it good to learn what how the apologists or members answer these same questions for themselves (not to be confused with critics and former members answering for them).

What say you?

Understanding the other's POV is extremely important for me, but agree to disagree on our conclusions seems to be a norm.

Peace

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Here to point out that membership, forms, ordinances and rituals are not to be worshipped.

They can be stepping stones to attitudes, or stumbling blocks of entitlement. The monopolistic ideology of organized religion does not bring forth the fruit of oneness.

It in fact divides believers into factions of disagreement and dissent.

God created the way, man messed it up by making it into a religion .

Live Christ

son

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Here to point out that membership, forms, ordinances and rituals are not to be worshipped.

They can be stepping stones to attitudes, or stumbling blocks of entitlement. The monopolistic ideology of organized religion does not bring forth the fruit of oneness.

It in fact divides believers into factions of disagreement and dissent.

God created the way, man messed it up by making it into a religion .

Live Christ

son

Wouldn't it be nice, though, if all people who lived Christ could be found within one religion?

... and what is a religion, anyway?

Doesn't it all boil down to a "way" ... ?

I think it's interesting that all true followers were once known as the followers of the Way

...as if there was only one way to truly follow Christ.

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On several threads there has been a smattering of discussion about what it would take to resolve the general animus between apologists and critics, as well as between member and non-member. In one of those discussion, TJane took a step in the right direction by asking critics: "What solution are you looking for?"

Another way of asking this question is: "what is your desired outcome?" or "what do you need from the other party?" or "what would bring you peace and happiness"?

Here is what I would change:

- More stake roadshows

- Church basketball tournaments on the regional level.

- Decent budget for the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and YW programs

- More support and money for cultural activities such as musical productions.

- No waiting period between civil and Temple Marriage

- Shorter block meeting schedule (2.5 hours max)

- Meetinghouses being more easily available for community and recreational purposes. Cooking allowed in meetinghouse kitchens again.

- Coffee, wine and beer allowed within moderation (I don't and wouldn't drink any of those, though)

- Masturbation allowed within moderation, except for missionaries (wouldn't start doing that either though)

- Financial disclosure on the ward, stake and general level

- Caffeinated beverages sold on BYU campus

- Ensign returns to more substantive content of the 1970's and early 1980's instead of continuing its downward spiral towards becoming the next Watchtower.

That's it. I'm cool with everything else.

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I think my desired outcome for both sides is for people to not take things so personally or be so ready to do "battle" for their cause. If people gave others the benefit of the doubt more often on both sides, we'd have a lot less drama, not just here, but in the real world.

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On several threads there has been a smattering of discussion about what it would take to resolve the general animus between apologists and critics, as well as between member and non-member. In one of those discussion, TJane took a step in the right direction by asking critics: "What solution are you looking for?"

Another way of asking this question is: "what is your desired outcome?" or "what do you need from the other party?" or "what would bring you peace and happiness"?

I think it would be good to learn how the critics and former members answer these questions for themselves (not to be confused with apologists or members answering for them).

And, I think it good to learn what how the apologists or members answer these same questions for themselves (not to be confused with critics and former members answering for them).

What say you?

(I think it would also help this discussion were each of us to read thoughtfully what may be said by either side, and not react defensively, keeping in mind that the intent of this thread isn't to judge, accuse, and point fingers or debate opposing views or convert others to our respective ways of thinking or even defend our respective positions, but rather to get clarity and better understand the opposing view and to find that which will make us each better people and improve our relations. This will require getting more into a listening and empathy mode and being flexible.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

When I was at odds with the church, all I wanted was validation for my feelings and point of view. I didn't spend lots of time on anti boards, in fact I didn't even have a computer back then, but I tried to get people to hear me. That was the most important thing to me back then.

After the Lord changed my heart and my view, I no longer needed to be given that validation of men. Being validated by the Lord gave me peace.

I don't know there is anything short of the Peace of Christ that can really give anyone satisfaction. There will always be some shortcoming or problem that those countermos will find that they will feel needs to be validated.

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Here is what I would change:

- More stake roadshows

- Church basketball tournaments on the regional level.

- Decent budget for the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and YW programs

- More support and money for cultural activities such as musical productions.

- No waiting period between civil and Temple Marriage

- Shorter block meeting schedule (2.5 hours max)

- Meetinghouses being more easily available for community and recreational purposes. Cooking allowed in meetinghouse kitchens again.

- Coffee, wine and beer allowed within moderation (I don't and wouldn't drink any of those, though)

- Masturbation allowed within moderation, except for missionaries (wouldn't start doing that either though)

- Financial disclosure on the ward, stake and general level

- Caffeinated beverages sold on BYU campus

- Ensign returns to more substantive content of the 1970's and early 1980's instead of continuing its downward spiral towards becoming the next Watchtower.

That's it. I'm cool with everything else.

Throw out from your list the coffee, wine and beer as well as the Masturbation one,

Add

- allow non-member family to Temple Sealings

and it looks pretty good to me in making a bridge and being a solution!!! :P

my 2 cents

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Throw out from your list the coffee, wine and beer as well as the Masturbation one,

Add

- allow non-member family to Temple Sealings

and it looks pretty good to me in making a bridge and being a solution!!! :P

my 2 cents

You wouldn't ask for such things if you really knew Christ and His Gospel.

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As a non-member on a "pro" site, 'resolving the general animus' isn't a reason to be here. Since I'm married to a member, I'm here to appreciate my wife's faith from the best perspective of other members. Trying this at home is NOT a reasonable idea in combining a bunch of teenage girls who seem to be raised with different rules, etc.

Understanding in why she believes what she does.

I keep hoping for understanding of my faith from her, but....... :P

I'm content with my situation now, but my wife isn't since she can't get married in the temple. IMO, the only thing that will bring her ultimate peace and happiness would be my conversion. Hmmm....Not quite agreeing on this one.

Understanding the other's POV is extremely important for me, but agree to disagree on our conclusions seems to be a norm.

Peace

I can certainly see how amicably resolving familial religious differences can often be more difficult/complicated than doing the same between relative strangers on the internet. In the latter case, if nothing else, we can just ignore each other or go our separate ways without much negative impact to our respective lives; whereas with the former, the wrong move can tear families apart and devistate the member for long periods of time.

However, as mentioned on another thread, I do think such resolutions are possible (if not hightly probable) and the need more significant (the stakes are much higher with family members than with relative strangers).

From what I have learned, the trick is not in both parties expecting to get everything they want, but in working out a resolution that is a win-win, and fair and acceptable for all parties.

Take you and your wife for example, while it may not be practical to expect that either of you will convert one way or the other (though that may be in the children's best interest), I believe that mutual respect and understanding is a reasonable and worthy goal to pursue. And, if you would like some help finding ways to promote those things, I would be pleased to be of whatever assistance I can. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Throw out from your list the coffee, wine and beer as well as the Masturbation one,

Add

- allow non-member family to Temple Sealings

and it looks pretty good to me in making a bridge and being a solution!!! :P

my 2 cents

While the thought sounds good, I don't think it could or should ever happen.

Have you ever been to a Temple Sealing? If you have, picture it in your mind. Picture the bride and groom. Picture the officiator. Picture the ceremony. Now, imagine if you were sitting next to someone who had never been in the Temple. What do you think their reaction would be? Would it be a positive experience? How would you feel, as you try to imagine what they are thinking, or if they make any comments or ask you any questions. While some might take the unique aspects of the ceremony in stride, for others, it could be very disturbing. The whole thing seems very normal and wonderful when the room is full of people who are all thrilled with the Temple, but if you add "outsiders", it would change everything.

That is why we must never, ever allow non-member relatives to attend Temple Sealings, no matter what the cost. It's for their own good.

I would support a limited-use recommend that would allow previously endowed people who no longer hold current recommends to attend, but that's different than having someone totally unfamiliar with the unique, sacred nature of the Temple attend.

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Here to point out that membership, forms, ordinances and rituals are not to be worshipped.

They can be stepping stones to attitudes, or stumbling blocks of entitlement. The monopolistic ideology of organized religion does not bring forth the fruit of oneness.

It in fact divides believers into factions of disagreement and dissent.

God created the way, man messed it up by making it into a religion .

Live Christ son

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that the way to resolve the animus between LDS critics and apologist, and between LDS member and non-member, is for each to abandon organised religion?

If so, do you think that is practical or necessary. (I am not trying to argue, but rather to better understand you.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Here is what I would change:

- More stake roadshows

- Church basketball tournaments on the regional level.

- Decent budget for the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and YW programs

- More support and money for cultural activities such as musical productions.

- No waiting period between civil and Temple Marriage

- Shorter block meeting schedule (2.5 hours max)

- Meetinghouses being more easily available for community and recreational purposes. Cooking allowed in meetinghouse kitchens again.

- Coffee, wine and beer allowed within moderation (I don't and wouldn't drink any of those, though)

- Masturbation allowed within moderation, except for missionaries (wouldn't start doing that either though)

- Financial disclosure on the ward, stake and general level

- Caffeinated beverages sold on BYU campus

- Ensign returns to more substantive content of the 1970's and early 1980's instead of continuing its downward spiral towards becoming the next Watchtower.

That's it. I'm cool with everything else.

I appreciate you sharing this with us. However, I have been unsuccessful in understand how you see these things resolving the general animus between LDS critics/former-members and apologists/members. Would you please expound on this?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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While the thought sounds good, I don't think it could or should ever happen.

Have you ever been to a Temple Sealing? If you have, picture it in your mind. Picture the bride and groom. Picture the officiator. Picture the ceremony. Now, imagine if you were sitting next to someone who had never been in the Temple. What do you think their reaction would be? Would it be a positive experience? How would you feel, as you try to imagine what they are thinking, or if they make any comments or ask you any questions. While some might take the unique aspects of the ceremony in stride, for others, it could be very disturbing. The whole thing seems very normal and wonderful when the room is full of people who are all thrilled with the Temple, but if you add "outsiders", it would change everything.

That is why we must never, ever allow non-member relatives to attend Temple Sealings, no matter what the cost. It's for their own good.

I would support a limited-use recommend that would allow previously endowed people who no longer hold current recommends to attend, but that's different than having someone totally unfamiliar with the unique, sacred nature of the Temple attend.

I've gone through the Temple during an open-house opportunity and seen the area where Temple Sealings would be performed. So I have an idea......

I can appreciate the Sacredness and the importance that LDS give to this important aspect and I hear the slogan "Families are Forever" all the time....

Then I see and hear all the time of how parents who are not members patiently wait outside as their children are sealed.

If you can't see the hurt in this common situation....

I don't know what to say.

It's an issue that's between believers and non-members that IMO can be bridged.....

but it needs to come from the LDS side. I hear the LDS church say that they shouldn't be hurt....lalalalalala, but telling parents how they should feel seems to fall on deaf ears IMO

my 2 cents

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I appreciate you sharing this with us. However, I have been unsuccessful in understand how you see these things resolving the general animus between LDS critics/former-members and apologists/members. Would you please expound on this?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You asked for "my desired outcome", or "what I need from the other party", or "what would bring me peace and happiness". Specifically, you wanted to know how I would "answer these questions for myself". All of my points apply specifically to me, and I make no claims for their general application.

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I've gone through the Temple during an open-house opportunity and seen the area where Temple Sealings would be performed. So I have an idea......

I can appreciate the Sacredness and the importance that LDS give to this important aspect and I hear the slogan "Families are Forever" all the time....

Then I see and hear all the time of how parents who are not members patiently wait outside as their children are sealed.

If you can't see the hurt in this common situation....

I don't know what to say.

It's an issue that's between believers and non-members that IMO can be bridged.....

but it needs to come from the LDS side. I hear the LDS church say that they shouldn't be hurt....lalalalalala, but telling parents how they should feel seems to fall on deaf ears IMO

my 2 cents

What do you believe you would actually be witnessing in a sealing ceremony?

... what value would you place on the actual sealing ordinance?

Try thinking of how the people who are being sealed feel knowing members of their families are not attending?

You could actually be there if you really and truly wanted to be there.

... after you did everything that was necessary to be able to be there.

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What do you believe you would actually be witnessing in a sealing ceremony?

... what value would you place on the actual sealing ordinance?

Try thinking of how the people who are being sealed feel knowing members of their families are not attending?

You could actually be there if you really and truly wanted to be there.

... after you did everything that was necessary to be able to be there.

And people wonder why is a 'general animus' among members and non-members and why we simply can't get along....

We agree to disagree about this sacred event and what could be done to bridge the gap....

Peace

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I've gone through the Temple during an open-house opportunity and seen the area where Temple Sealings would be performed. So I have an idea......

I can appreciate the Sacredness and the importance that LDS give to this important aspect and I hear the slogan "Families are Forever" all the time....

Then I see and hear all the time of how parents who are not members patiently wait outside as their children are sealed.

If you can't see the hurt in this common situation....

I don't know what to say.

It's an issue that's between believers and non-members that IMO can be bridged.....

but it needs to come from the LDS side. I hear the LDS church say that they shouldn't be hurt....lalalalalala, but telling parents how they should feel seems to fall on deaf ears IMO

If you haven't been endowed or been to a sealing, then you can't really understand what I'm talking about. I understand that non-member friends and relatives are "hurt", but what I'm saying is that in many cases it would be worse for everybody if the non-members were allowed inside. This is why it hasn't changed, why it won't change, and why it shouldn't change. It's entirely possible for the ceremony to change in the future to such a degree that non-members would be uplifted by the experience, but I don't think that's the case in it's present form.

There are certainly many non-members who would enjoy the ceremony and be totally supportive of it, but how would you distinguish between them to the point that you could allow some to enter, and others not to? It just wouldn't work.

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And people wonder why is a 'general animus' among members and non-members and why we simply can't get along....

We agree to disagree about this sacred event and what could be done to bridge the gap....

Peace

I was asking you to communicate your honest answers to those questions.

You seem to want to close our communications because you disagree.

What is it you disagree with, exactly?

The idea of not being able to attend a sealing ordinance?

You actually can attend, if you do what is necessary.

It seems as if you simply want to do as you please simply because it's what you want.

Try thinking of how your own actions affect other people.

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Here is what I would change:

- More stake roadshows

- Church basketball tournaments on the regional level.

- Decent budget for the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and YW programs

- More support and money for cultural activities such as musical productions.

Nothing wrong with the above, but the reality is is that it take people, money, and time.

All of which there is only so much of for most family's. It's hard to get people out to just the things that are already done, let alone add more too it. The things you mention are more small town and closs community kind of things. Until we can get to that point again, it will always be harder to do as much of those things. Of course, people should realize that they need to do more, instead of just complaining about it. The reason those things aren't done as much is because people aren't taking the time and energy to do so.

- No waiting period between civil and Temple Marriage

I can't support this, it's not reasonable. There's usually a reason why people are getting civilly married instead of in the Temple. Temple Marriage is not to be taken lightly. So all the waiting periords related to that are entirely appropriate. Plus, it's not a "waiting" period, it's a PREPARATION PERIOD. You've got to get rid of those negative paradigms.

- Shorter block meeting schedule (2.5 hours max)

Maybe okay for those who don't take the gospel seriously, but not okay for the elect.

If anything, we should be doing more Church related things on sunday, not less.

While I understand it can drag, and seem long, but I've only noticed I feel that way when I'm not thristing for the gospel, to serve, to love, to learn, etc. So... no.

- Meetinghouses being more easily available for community and recreational purposes. Cooking allowed in meetinghouse kitchens again.

I would agree with this, but, the question is how. Someone would almost have to be hired to be there all the time to watch the place.

- Coffee, wine and beer allowed within moderation (I don't and wouldn't drink any of those, though)

- Masturbation allowed within moderation, except for missionaries (wouldn't start doing that either though)

Sorry.... no We are Saints, not something else.

- Financial disclosure on the ward, stake and general level

I undestand the reasoning, but it's not the place of the members to micromanage and second guess the funds usuage and distribution. Would create more ploblems I think then you thinking it would solve. Frankly, the main problems such openess would solve simply doesn't occur with us. Proper controls are in place.

- Caffeinated beverages sold on BYU campus

Soda or whatever maybe okay, coffee/tea, no.

Though, I can understand the Church wanting it's people to not be using substances to help them get through the day or whatever.

- Ensign returns to more substantive content of the 1970's and early 1980's instead of continuing its downward spiral towards becoming the next Watchtower.

Not sure what you mean by this, but let us know. You talking about more scholarship things in it?

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"What solution are you looking for?"

Another way of asking this question is: "what is your desired outcome?" or "what do you need from the other party?" or "what would bring you peace and happiness"?

Again, thanks for your attempts at civility Wade. The truth is that I do feel that bridge-building is a possibility. I've said this before (I'm sure ad nauseum to many), but I REALLY have no interest in deconverting anybody. My take (as I felt this way for 40 years) is that most Mormons feel it their duty to "warn" the world. I'm not arguing that that teaching is a good one. But I've found in my post-mo life that most never-mos and many post-mos don't feel that way. The norm is an attitude of "if it works for you and makes you happy, go for it!"

So from the TBM perspective, I see where many see our approach here to dissuade the TBMs. At least for me, it is not. Probably like Wade, I would like to see us learn how to get along, and even become friends. Many have said "I can't respect those who criticize the institution and prophets I love." I understand how difficult that is...but I think it is possible.

Simply, there is reason for many of us to disbelieve. You can disagree with us, but I think it is possible to like us anyway. Perhaps a trite analogy, but many democrats and republicans learn to get along despite their dramatic differences in belief. Can't we do the same?

So my "desired outcome" is simply learn to treat each other with respect. I live in Salt Lake City, and not a day goes by without having to deal with some degree of Mormon teaching or issue. I have a great relationship with my TBM neighbors...they understand me. I'm sure it wasn't easy for them in the beginning, but when they saw I mowed my lawn, planted flowers, played with their kids...they became quite friendly.

I hope all of us can do the same. That's all.

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I was asking you to communicate your honest answers to those questions.

You seem to want to close our communications because you disagree.

I didn't want to derail the thread, but both our comments seem to answer the OP question that there isn't always an amicable solution, but I have the time to address some of these.

What do you believe you would actually be witnessing in a sealing ceremony?

For LDS, it's sealing the couple for all eternity and not 'til death do you part.' We disagree that others believe that but that's what LDS believe others believe. So be it.

... what value would you place on the actual sealing ordinance?

It's an important step for the couple and I'm a witness along with others. 'What God has joined together, let know one tear apart'.....EVER

Try thinking of how the people who are being sealed feel knowing members of their families are not attending?

yep....hurt runs both ways, but the couple have a testimony and others could have been here if they only converted....Hmmm

You could actually be there if you really and truly wanted to be there.

So you're saying not all Christians can attend only LDS Christian????

What is it you disagree with, exactly?

The exclusiveness. Being a Christian should be an inclusive thing of 'loving your neighbor'. The image the LDS church gives IMO is 'you are not worthy'

It seems as if you simply want to do as you please simply because it's what you want.

Christ is first and foremost in my life, in the different things that I do through my church. Visit the sick, elderly, shut-ins, prayer groups as well as teach the youth on Sunday. My wife and LDS kids think I do too much church stuff. So your comment seems laughable. Sorry.

Try thinking of how your own actions affect other people.

I've turned my life over to God daily and I try to live the golden rule. "Love your God with your heart, mind and soul...and Love your neighbor as yourself."

Peace

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Actually I can see no resolution to this problem. The very nature of apologetics appears to be to confound those who attack the faith. I do sometimes tire from the continuous attacks on the Church and it's leaders both founding and modern. In fact I have considered making a permanent exodus from this board and move over to the Mormon/LDS Forums which is a much less hostile environment to discuss gospel principles and did so for a while, but it did get a little boring. I guess what Lehi said about having an "opposition in all things" must be true. And yet I find these boards very tiring at times, the same old "crap" is just rehashed over and over: polyandry, the trinity, salvation by grace/works, MMM, blacks and the priesthood, evolution, and blah, blah, blah. The TBM's are convinced they are right and the exmo's, and anti-mo's, and the EV's, and the atheists all are still convinced they are right. It can be reminecent of Palmyra in the 1820's. The truth is their is no solution, you cannot be for something without being against something else. I have to wonder about these words of Paul:

(1 Timothy 6:3-5) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."
I think the Prophet Joseph had the same thought when he said:
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section One 1830-34 Pg.43) Avoid contentions and vain disputes with men of corrupt minds, who do not desire to know the truth. Remember that "it is a day of warning, and not a day of many words." If they receive not your testimony in one place, flee to another, remembering to cast no reflections, nor throw out any bitter sayings. If you do your duty, it will be just as well with you, as though all men embraced the Gospel.
So I really wonder what are we doing here? What is our purpose? The problem with the restored Gospel and the Gospel in any age is that it will always be opposed and although we encourage people to "keep all the truth they have and come get more" the problem is most who think they have the truth already don't want more. While on my Mission I had convert who complained about being perscuted by a group of co-workers (that is before something like that could get you fired) surrounded her and told her to pick one of their religions and she would be saved. Apparently according to them you could believe anything but Mormonism...that was where their tolerance ended. The reason is if you are a protestant you can believe a catholic still is a follower of Christ and vice versa. But if you are a LDS--you can't, your very nature is exclusive. This is the cause for the bashings and rantings and persecuting, because if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a true prophet...then they are without God in the world. They only have a form of godliness a shadow of reality and pretense and a pious fraud. That is why they must attack, why they cannot include us as just another "Christian." I am sorry if what I say offends some, but you can't teach the truth without all the devils in hell rage...I try to live this article of faith:
(Articles of Faith 11) "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
I would never compell anyone to believe as I do, but if I come on this board I will not allow a falsehood spoken against my faith go unopposed just for the sake of "getting along." One last scripture to show my position:
(D&C 71:7-10) "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you--there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time."
I try to make this my guide in posting on these boards.

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