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smac97

Another Interview With Carole Whang Schutter

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What were the 2 other massacres before MMM that are referred to?

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I want to learn more about all those blood-atoned bodies lying around Salt Lake City.

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Before the aforementioned manuals was B.H. Roberts' Comprehensive History, which details the account as well in the hundredth chapter, vol. 4.

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Smac,

Sorry but I've read your post several times and can't make out if the quote is accurate or not.

If the quote is accurate what did JS mean by it?

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Fisking #3:

After an extensive discussion of how Mormons have been describing themselves as Christians, we get this:

Latayne: Actually, this is something that's been in the works even since I was a Mormon. I sat in on a meeting with Dr. Neil Maxwell at BYU as a journalist at BYU, in which he announced plans to take out ads in the Reader's Digest, and I remember that happened back in the 70s. Billboards. Things the Mormon Church had never done before. Making the name of Jesus bigger in their logo. Actually, if you're as a journalist, which I am, you go to the LDS Church's website and they ask you not to even call them Mormons. They want to be called Saints.

Chris: Wow.

Latayne: You know, it's, if you can control language you can control anything. And that's what the Mormon Church is trying to do, is control the language that is spoken about their church.

This coming from the same folks (Evangelicals) who presume to exercise some sort of control over the designation of "Christian." This coming from the same folks whose compatriots have argued that Roman Catholics are not Christian.

The suggestion that Mormons are not Christian is one of rather recent derivation. And it started in the Evangelical Camp. And when Mormons challenge this lie, and all the dissemblings and distortions that Evangelicals have to resort to so as to exclude Mormons from the definition of Christianity, we are the ones accused of trying to "control language."

Daniel Peterson's and Stephen D. Ricks's book, Offenders for a Word, does a masterful job of rebutting the claim that Mormons are not Christians. There are dozens of Orwellianisms employed by Evangelicals in support of their claim that Mormons are not Christian.

-Smac

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Fisking #3:

Look at the description of the event:

1. Location: She was driving in Colorado (this is fairly consistent).

2. Nature of the Event: She

a. saw "in her mind's eye"

b. had an idea "[pop] into [her] head"

c. had "a vision"

d. had a "crazy idea"

Question #1: Are any of these actually inconsistent with each other? Is it inconsistent to say that she had "a vision" in one interview, but then describe it as something saw "in her mind's eye" in another interview?

3. Content of the Event: She

a. "saw a pioneer woman standing in this area [in Colorado]"

b. had an idea "[pop] into [her] head" (no description of the content)

c. "had a vision of a young woman in pioneer clothes...I felt as if the Lord was telling me to write a screenplay about a woman going to the California gold rush when Mormons, dressed as Indians, attacked their wagon train and massacred them"

d. had an idea about "a pioneer woman going in a wagon train to the California gold rush, and the train gets attacked by Mormons dressed as Indians"

Question #2: The California Gold Rush is generally recognized as having begun in January 1848 (when gold was discovered at Sutter's Mill in California). The Fancher group left Arkansas in April 1857, eight months before this discovery. So were the Fanchers headed to California as part of the Gold Rush? Or were they headed to California for other reasons?

Question #3: Schutter's vision has Mormons dressed as Indians attacking and massacring the wagon train. While the initial attack apparently involved Mormons dressed as Indians, the "massacre" proper did not. So did this vision contain faulty information?

Thanks,

-Smac

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Fisking #4:

Carole Schutter seems to have had a fairly good grasp of the various dynamics in play prior to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. In the interview she mentions the following contextual elements:

-The murder of Parley Pratt

-The failure to prosecute Pratt's murderer

-The Mormon persecution (the "Mormon War" in Missouri)

-The presence of Missourians in the Fancher group

-The sentiment that some of the Missourians in the Fancher group had participated in killing Joseph Smith

-The Mormon Reformation (including Brigham Young's sermons related thereto)

-The approaching military force sent by President Buchanan

And yet virtually none of this context made it into the movie. There wasn't time, she said.

Or was it that context would not have been useful in demonizing the Mormons?

-Smac

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Smac:

In post #31, you have the gold rush date / Fancher party time lapse mixed up. The Fanchers came 9 years after the gold rush started, not 8 months before.

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Smac:

In post #31, you have the gold rush date / Fancher party time lapse mixed up. The Fanchers came 9 years after the gold rush started, not 8 months before.

Ah, you're right. My bad.

Thanks for the correction.

-Smac

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Actually, if you're as a journalist, which I am, you go to the LDS Church's website and they ask you not to even call them Mormons. They want to be called Saints.
Style Guide - The Name of the Church

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.â??

While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When writing about the Church, please follow these guidelines:

In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Please avoid the use of â??Mormon Church,â? â??LDS Churchâ? or â??the Church of the Latter-day Saints.â?

When a shortened reference is needed, the terms â??the Churchâ? or â??the Church of Jesus Christâ? are encouraged.

When referring to Church members, the term â??Latter-day Saintsâ? is preferred, though â??Mormonsâ? is acceptable.

"Mormonâ? is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon, Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Trail, or when used as an adjective in such expressions as â??Mormon pioneers.â?

The term â??Mormonismâ? is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms â??Mormons,â? â??Mormon fundamentalist,â? â??Mormon dissidents,â? etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: â??The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other ... churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smithâ??s death.â?

Not bad "investigative" research for a (cough, cough)... journalist.

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I'd never heard of it until, Mountain Meadows Massacre, until after I had left the Mormon Church.

Oh, good, another "I was never told" ex-Mo. Sorry, but it was right there in the Church History in the Fullness of Times CES Manual.

It is also mentioned in Essentials in Church History by Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret book 1979)[copywrite 1950) - the whole of Chapter 44 to be precise!

Also mentioned in The Restored Church by William H Berrett (Deseret Book Co 1977) [copywrite 1961] - the whole of Chapter 37!

Also it is detailed in A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by BH Roberts (BYU Press 1965)[copywrite 1957] Vol. 4 Chapters C & CI - starting on Pg 140 to 180!

So I find it unbelievable that Latayne and others who claim to never have heard of MMM till after they left the church to be very unbelievable.!

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"I want to learn more about all those blood-atoned bodies lying around Salt Lake City."

What about the other 2 massacres before the MMM? Anyone know anything about those 'massacres'?

I have those same questions.

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I find the quotes and claims very interesting. Thanks smac97!

Those quotes aside, what I find interesting is the Ms. Schutter is making something of a remarkable transformation. I take this interview to represent that she is coming out as unabashed antiMormon. Perhaps the "this-is-not-about-attacking-the-Mormons" was a pretense that was maintained for publicizing the film. Now that the film is essentially a secular failure and out of the theaters, there is no need to maintain the pretense.

In this interview, she is clearly a partisan. She comments on Mormonism are now going beyond any context related to the film. She consorts with critics of the LDS Church. She parrots standard Evangelical propaganda themes.

In fact, if it were not for the fact that she was the creator of September Dawn this would have been an un-notable and standard interview given by Bill McKeever, Hank Hanagraff, Ed Decker, Matt Slick, etc. etc.

Regards,

Six

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Re: the blood-atonement bodies around SLC--

For quite a while there, each and every unsolved murder in Utah, and even some outside the territory, and even a few whose perpetrator was known, were thrown at the feet of Rockwell, Hickman, and the rest of their Danite band of cutthroats and killers. The fact that there didn't seem to actually be such a band notwithstanding.

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"I want to learn more about all those blood-atoned bodies lying around Salt Lake City."

What about the other 2 massacres before the MMM? Anyone know anything about those 'massacres'?

I have those same questions.

One is probably the Gunnison Massacre, and I forgot where I saw this, but they my be refering to another attack in Santa Clara. I believe at least one of the many MMM books out there tries to tie the Gunnison Massacre to the MMM, (could that be Sally Denton's attempt at fiction?) The Santa Clara attack, if I'm right, can hardly be considered a massacre, but if my datline is correct it happened within a year before MMM and involves some of the same people as well as the general local as MMM.

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Attempts were made at the time to pin the Gunnison Massacre on the Mormons, but nobody reputable nowadays believes this. The Indians were torqued off at the shooting of one of their own at the hands of a white man (I don't remember if he was a Mormon or not) and they wanted revenge. They found the small party of surveyors still in camp one morning, and attacked.

The thought that Mormons did it is ludicrous. Gunnison was friendly to the Mormons, having spent the winter in SLC during the Stansbury expedition, and had carried out a long and amicable correspondence with Albert Carrington . There was absolutely no reason to murder the party.

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This whack job claims God sent her a vision of Mormons dressed up as Indians to make her write a bomb of a screenplay about a subject she demonstrably knows little about and Mormons are the fanatics? Haha

At least God was smart enough to drop out before the movie was made.

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