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Anijen

First Humans Adam And Eve?

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Then why is it taught at BYU? The brethren seem to think there is compelling enough evidence to include it in their core curriculum for secular learning. Or are they just "selling out?"

there is a difference between having the answer and having the best guess so far. Evolution is an idea that is born of a profoundly inadequate amount of information.

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there is a difference between having the answer and having the best guess so far. Evolution is an idea that is born of a profoundly inadequate amount of information.

As compared to what? While evolution in parts may not answer all the questions the supposition of basing the creation of all life within a week is a faith based hypothesis. Let science take care of itself and faith to do the same.

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Wrong again.

Well no, you're wrong. The science is clear. We have little information, and the information we have is often contradictory. Evolution is the best explanation but it is full of holes. The truth is there is currently no sound explanation for how life came to be because, contrary to your naive perspective on science, the evidence is scarce. Ridiculously too scarce to draw any conclusions. Evolution may be the best plausible explanation but, as you take time to do more research, you will find we have a long way to go before we know the truth. I don't fear evolution, it may well be how we came to be. I just know that conclusion have been made on evidence that may be irrelevant to the greater development of our planet. I don't fault the scientists for advocating evolution. They have to conclude something. Scientists in the past concluded that the earth was flat, and the evidence seemed to support this hypotheses. Cocaine was at one time available at the corner store, ideal for gastrointestinal problems. New research has, to say the least, altered our interpretation of the evidence.

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But why the unwillingness to even suggest the possibility that there are events that are supernatural in the world's history? Very often the comment "that isn't scientific" really means "that isn't possible".

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But why the unwillingness to even suggest the possibility that there are events that are supernatural in the world's history? Very often the comment "that isn't scientific" really means "that isn't possible".

Sure I believe in miracles. What I don't believe is that God destroyed all of the creatures that inhabited the entire Earth 6000 years ago, started over with newly created beings and then made it look like there is an unbroken chain of modern human life going back over a hundred thousand years. Contrary to Freedom's naiive opinion, evolution is supported through anthropology, geology, archaeology, and, most importantly, Biology. Of course we will learn more and more about "how" it happens as we discover new things but "if" it happens is no longer a question.

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It seems to me that you're saying that any interpretation of the evidence that conflicts with an a priori religious belief is false. I hope that's not what you mean.

No, that is not what I was saying.

I was saying that evidence, in itself, is not false.

What is false is a false interpretation of evidence... any evidence.

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Well that's an asinine question! :P

Which one?

I agree that I was asking you some questions about as...es, but my main question was why you think what you think.

What is the reason you don't believe what we are told in the scriptures?

...

I'll avoid making guesses and just ask you to tell me. <_<

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No, that is not what I was saying.

I was saying that evidence, in itself, is not false.

What is false is a false interpretation of evidence... any evidence.

How do you determine what is a false interpretation?

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I couldn't help but notice that the person who wrote that article was also a human.

What is the reason you believe what he thinks?

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And I believe He is doing so...through science.

How can you tell when a scientist is speaking for God?

Do you compare notes from scientists with what prophets have told us?

Why don't you just write a book so everyone else can know what you're thinking?

... or is there already a book that would say the same thing?

... and if there is a book out there that already says the same thing that you're thinking, how do you know that what that book says is true?

If I knew that what you are thinking is true, I would consider your words to be scripture.

Please feel free to ask me how I know what is true. :P

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How do you determine what is a false interpretation?

My question to Katherine was asking her how she knows what is true.

I don't try to determine what is a false interpretation.

I try to determine or find out what is true.

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Does no one but I see the outright funniness of using a device of pure science to tell someone else that they don't believe the sciences are right? :P<_<:unsure:

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My question to Katherine was asking her how she knows what is true.

I don't try to determine what is a false interpretation.

I try to determine or find out what is true.

And how do you do that?

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Sure I believe in miracles. What I don't believe is that God destroyed all of the creatures that inhabited the entire Earth 6000 years ago, started over with newly created beings and then made it look like there is an unbroken chain of modern human life going back over a hundred thousand years. Contrary to Freedom's naiive opinion, evolution is supported through anthropology, geology, archaeology, and, most importantly, Biology. Of course we will learn more and more about "how" it happens as we discover new things but "if" it happens is no longer a question.

I agree that there is evidence on which scientists rely for their belief(s) in evolution as they believe evolution happened, but people can use the Bible as evidence for any belief they want to have.

I believe it is critical that we properly interpret evidence to find out what is true.

And btw, there is also evidence to support our (LDS) belief that the universe is eternal, including our idea that the elements, themselves, are eternal, but for some reason many people like the "big bang" theory better... although the evidence can be interpreted either way.

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And how do you do that?

I ask someone who, I believe, knows the truth on an issue, and who has the ability to tell me.

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I guess the only way you can really know if evolution exists is if you can answer this question:

Can God create life just by forming a body and then making it come to life or Can he only create life by starting with bacteria.

just my 2 cents :P

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Does no one but I see the outright funniness of using a device of pure science to tell someone else that they don't believe the sciences are right? :P<_<:unsure:

Yes, I do, but I am also quite serious about finding out what is true. :ph34r:

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The world is flat cause Jesus told me so in the Bible.

It seems that I interpret that evidence differently than you do.

Can you provide me with good reasoning to accept your interpretation?

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Jesus instructed the Apostles to go to the "four corners of the earth". Last I looked balls don't have corners.

The Bible says: The Earth is flat!

The sections of this article are:

- The Bible says: The Earth is flat!

- The flat Earth is established and can never move?! The Sun hurries back to where

it rises?!

- The Earth has pillars?!

- The Earth has Edges?! The wicked might get shaken off of it and fall off in

space?!

- Does Isaiah 40:22 really say that Earth is Round? The Earth is a flat circle?!

- Christian Theologians' Commentaries that further suggest that the Earth

is flat.

- The light of the Universe and the flat earth's dimensions in the Bible.

- Conclusion.

When it comes to scientific claims, the Bible has the dumbest claims, with all due respect to Jews and Christians. The Bible claims that Earth has four ends and four corners. Nobody can ever think a ball or a cycle to have corners and ends! Only flat items can have corners and ends, and this is exactly what the bible is trying to express regarding the shape of the earth. The earth is not flat, as once thought and it has no corners or ends at all. If Magnetic Poles can be taken as ends or corners of earth, then this definitely opposed to the axis of rotation.

Isaiah 11:12

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13

13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19

19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

The flat Earth is established and can never move?! The Sun hurries back to where it rises?!

The Psalm 104:5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5 verses from the Bible in this section were sent to me by Abdullah Bisyir; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

Well, I don't think there is any need for much explanation to the nonsense above! It is crystal clear that the Bible is full of man-made corruptions and alterations. Since when the Earth is flat and can never move?! We all know that the Earth and the other planets rotate and move in space around the Sun. Since when the Sun hurries back to where it rises, like if there is some hole it rises from and another hole it sets through on Earth?!

For those Jews and Christians who would like to see where in the Noble Quran does Allah Almighty say that the planets in space rotate and move, read the following Noble Verse:

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"

For more information and other Noble Verses, please visit:

Science in the Noble Quran and Islam.

The Earth is round according to Islam.

The Earth has pillars?!

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

The Earth has Edges?!

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"

"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"

"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)"

Does Isaiah 40:22 really say that Earth is Round?

It is quite clear that the above Biblical Verses suggest and claim that the Earth is flat, has Edges, has Four Corners, has Pillars, and has Foundations. No unbiased person would deny the straight forward quotes above. Only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would.

Some desperate Christians have gone as far as presenting Isaiah 40:22 to try to prove that the Bible claims that the earth is round.

Let us look at what the Verse says:

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)"

First of all, a circle is not a ball or sphere or an egg-shaped object. A circle is a flat round surface, similar to flat rectangular, or square, or triangular surfaces. So if the Bible claims that the Earth is a circle, then this is still bogus because the earth is obviously not a flat surface.

We have two conditions here:

1- Isaiah 40:22 is claiming that the Earth is a flat circle.

2- Isaiah 40:22 is claiming that the Earth has a circle above it.

If we were to take condition #1, then we are left with a clear and irrefutable contradiction between Isaiah 40:22 and some of the Bible's verses that I mentioned above in the article, because a flat circle doesn't have "four corners", and ironically in either case, we still have a scientifically false claim about the Earth's shape.

IF we were to take condition #2, then it doesn't prove that the Earth is an egg-shaped figure, and Isaiah 40:22 surely becomes irrelevant to this subject.

One thing is for sure clear, and that is Isaiah 40:22 is obviously ambiguous and not clear if we wish to prove from it that the Earth is not flat and is egg-shaped. If we look at what the entire Bible says (as presented above by all the Verses) about the shape of the Earth as the Roman Catholic Church did in the past, then we would reach the same conclusion they reached, and that is: The Earth is Flat!

Certainly, when Christopher Columbus thought that he could reach India by going west in the Atlantic ocean instead of east as it was traditionally done, the Church in Europe was afraid that he will eventually reach the "end of the earth" and the "Edges of the earth" as the Bible clearly says above, and fall off into the space and die.

After he was able to convince the Queen that the adventure was worth the try, Christopher Columbus had survived several assassination attempts while he and his people were sailing in the ocean, because his Christian Church-believing mates were afraid and wanted to go back.

When he finally found America, he thought he reached India. That's why the North American Continent was called "India", and the Native Americans were called "Red Indians".

This is at least what I learned from my "US History" class when I was in High School.

Christian Theologians' Commentaries that further suggest that the Earth is flat:

The following is an email I received from brother Mohammed; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Subj: (no subject)

Date: 4/24/02 8:22:58 AM Central Daylight Time

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]

Assalamu alaikum Dear brother

Look at this Pre-scientific view: Ancient Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area and Middle East taught that the universe was quite tiny. Earth is more or less flat, like a dinner plate. Mountains around the edges held up a rigid dome which formed the sky. The sun, moon, planets and stars traveled across the underside of the dome of the sky on a daily basis. God sits on his throne in Heaven, which lies above the canopy. This applies to Isaiah 40:22.

The site that is talking about this is at: http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl.htm

Further on we now have refuted those layman scholars who say the word in Isaiah means a Globe: EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN scholars who agree that Isaiah 40:22 does NOT speak of a spherical earth. There are even Evangelical publishers of books and Bible commentaries who do NOT teach that Isaiah 40:22 speaks of a spherical earth. BAKER BOOKS and evangelical publisher published the following book about Isaiah 40:22:

What You Know Might Not Be So: 220 Misinterpretations of Bible Texts Explained by David C. Downing Paperback (September 1987) Baker Book House; ISBN: 0801029759.

And EVANGELICALS now have a commentary on Genesis available which takes the ancient Near Eastern context of Genesis seriously. It is Genesis, The NIV Application Commentary by John H. Walton (past professor of OT at Moody Bible Institute, and now at Wheaton),published by Zondervan, 2001.

Although it is not a technical commentary like Gordon Wenham's, it is a solid scholarly piece of work. 759 pages, nearly half of which deal with Genesis 1-11. Paul Seely, an Evangelical scholar, has even written a paper that was published in the WESTMINSTER REVIEW (an EVANGELICAL college), in which he says the following:

The Geographical Meaning of Earth Seas in Genesis 1:10

by Paul Seely:

"There is one verse in the OT, however, which has often been cited at least by laymen as a proof that the earth was understood to be a globe. I refer to Isaiah 40:22 which speaks of God as the One sitting above the circle of the earth. This verse does imply that the earth is circular, but there is nothing either in the underlying Hebrew word (hug) or in the context which necessarily implies anything more than the circularity of the flat earth-disc which the historical context and Genesis 1 have given us as the meaning of. If Isaiah had intended to speak of the earth as a globe, he would probably have used the word he used in 22:18 (dur), meaning 'ball.' "

For as E. J. Young noted, Isaiah 40:22 describes God as seated on the zenith, the highest point directly overhead. Thus the verse implies that earth's dwellers, all mankind according to Psalm 33:13, 14, are clearly visible from a very high point directly overhead. This imagery fits most naturally the conception of the earth below as a flat disc, not a globe. For if the earth were a globe, part of all mankind namely earth's dwellers in Australia, Argentina, South Africa, etc... could not be seen from a point directly overhead. One could force the issue by appealing to God's omniscience, but Isaiah 40:22 (as well as the other verses which mention God looking down) is focused on God's height above the earth; and his seeing all mankind is derived from that height. That phrase "the circle of the earth" in no way implies sphericity is confirmed by the fact that in Egypt this phrase was used to refer to the earth as a flat circular disc. So when interpreted within its historical and biblical context Isaiah 40:22 implies indeed that the earth is circular in shape but also that it is flat.

The light of the Universe and the flat earth's dimensions in the Bible:

The following is an email I received from brother Mohammed Riaz M; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Here is excellent proof that the author of the corrupted bible thought that the earth was a flat one.

1. Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Riaz : Lighting doesn't travel around the earth the biblical god thought his earth was a small, flat one.

2. Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Riaz : If the author of the bible thought of a globe earth then the last question in job 38: 44 should of read "Who stretched a measuring line around it?"

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Riaz : Does a sphere have ends, and how can you grab the ends of a sphere? Only a flat disc or square could be grabbed and shaken in this way.

Conclusion:

The Bible not only failed to claim that the Earth was egg-shaped, but it also claimed in numerous verses as shown above that the Earth is flat, has Edges, has Four Corners, has Pillars, and has Foundations. As I said above, no unbiased person would deny the obvious and embarrassing quotes above. Only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would.

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As I said above, no unbiased person would deny the obvious and embarrassing quotes above. Only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would.

I don't deny any of the quotes that you made in your post.

I simply disagree with at least some of your interpretations of what you have quoted.

Can you do any better than to quote what someone else has said before?

I'd rather learn from someone who knows the truth for themselves.

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Paul Ray:

"What is the reason you don't believe what we are told in the scriptures?"

I have no problem with the Bible being the word of God. Just not some peoples interpretation of it. :P

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Paul Ray:

"What is the reason you don't believe what we are told in the scriptures?"

I have no problem with the Bible being the word of God. Just not some peoples interpretation of it. :P

Me either, and me too. <_<

... and I like it when other people agree with me. :unsure:

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