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Uncle Dale

What Is The World?

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Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."

Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language

to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."

What is "the world?"

Uncle Dale

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Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."

Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language

to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."

What is "the world?"

Uncle Dale

Based on the language in the manuscripts, I'm not convinced anything approximating "world" was intended.

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Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."

Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language

to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."

What is "the world?"

Uncle Dale

Titus 1:2 My message is based on the confidence of eternal life. God, who never lies, promised this eternal life before the world began.

2Titus 1:9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness.

Based on these two scriptures, I would say the world being spoken of was not a place, but rather the emergence of human life upon the earth. However, it could equally apply to the entire universe, but the reference does seem to be most applicable to our emergence 15 billion years later.

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Titus 1:2 My message is based on the confidence of eternal life. God, who never lies, promised this eternal life before the world began.

2Titus 1:9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness.

Based on these two scriptures, I would say the world being spoken of was not a place, but rather the emergence of human life upon the earth. However, it could equally apply to the entire universe, but the reference does seem to be most applicable to our emergence 15 billion years later.

Yeah, I know it's a bit obscure.

Would "the world" include the bottoms of the seas? -- the tops of all the mountains? -- the moon? --

the firmament? -- the skies? -- the sun? -- the milky way? -- hell?

UD

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Would "the world" include the bottoms of the seas? -- the tops of all the mountains? -- the moon? --

the firmament? -- the skies? -- the sun? -- the milky way? -- hell?

UD

Perhaps, because I know there has been speculation that these created items will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom.

Hell? No. :P

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Perhaps, because I know there has been speculation that these created items will be transformed

into the Celestial Kingdom.

Hell? No. :P

I wonder -- in the Hebrew Bible there is no such word as "world," -- rather, there are words like

"the heavens and the earth," or "the land," or "the ground," etc.

But in Greek we have the word "kosmos," which can mean the entire physical universe -- or just that

part of the universe where life can exist -- or the social order of human beings upon our planet.

So, when the LXX superimposes "kosmos" back upon the Hebrew "heavens and earth," it is an unknown

word for the original Bible -- (actually, I think there are few such examples in the LXX -- in Job, I guess).

But I have frequently heard and read Latter Day Saint commentary regarding "the world" in pre-Christian

times -- or the "organization of the world" before hunan beings ever inhabited the earth.

If "the world" was an unknown concept to the ancient Israelites, are we making a mistake in speaking

of such things that far back in time?

UD

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I think its referring to the universe in general. The "start of time" if you will.

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I think its referring to the universe in general. The "start of time" if you will.

Yeah -- probably so -- but I picked a couple of NT examples to begin with. What I'm really interested

in, is how Latter Day Saints apply the term to the earlier, pre-Christian era.

Kittel's "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" says something interesting:

"The adoption of the term kosmos by the LXX is an important event in history,

for this makes of it a biblical as well as a philosiphical concept. The LXX

uses kosmos for the "host" (of heaven -- Gen. 2:1; Dt. 4:19), thus combining

such ideas as order, adornment, world, heaven, and stars (Ex. 33:5; Prov. 20:29;

Is 3:24; Nah. 2:10; Is. 49:18; Prov. 28:17, etc. etc."

So, I guess what I'm really asking, is what do LDS mean by "the world," when they use that word

in speaking about pre-Christian times?

How is the word used in the BoM, prior to III Nephi, for example?

the redemption of the world

since the world began

the creation of the world

things which are pleasing unto the world

them which are not of the world

a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world

in other words, a Saviour of the world

this Redeemer of the world

the sins of the world

prepared from the foundation of the world

write concerning the end of the world

since the world began

from the creation of the world

he cometh into the world

I will punish the world

made the world as a wilderness

nor fill the face of the world

a light unto the world

etc. etc. etc.

Is this really Hebrew phraseology?

UD

.

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the redemption of the world

since the world began

the creation of the world

things which are pleasing unto the world

them which are not of the world

a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world

in other words, a Saviour of the world

this Redeemer of the world

the sins of the world

prepared from the foundation of the world

write concerning the end of the world

since the world began

from the creation of the world

he cometh into the world

I will punish the world

made the world as a wilderness

nor fill the face of the world

a light unto the world

Book of Mormon "hebraisms" -- proving that 1Nephi and 2Nephi are ancient documents,

written by Israelites or early Jews?

Uncle Dale

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Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?

Sin.

Pain.

Temptation.

Evil.

Etc.

We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?

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Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?

Sin.

Pain.

Temptation.

Evil.

Etc.

We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?

That's typically how I have interpreted it.

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Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?

Sin.

Pain.

Temptation.

Evil.

Etc.

We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?

And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things?

For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth,

which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being

able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created,

O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands

upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

???

UD

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Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?

Sin.

Pain.

Temptation.

Evil.

Etc.

We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?

Ill through this thought out. All things are spirtual as well as temporal. Yes?

Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."

Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language

to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."

What is "the world?"

Uncle Dale

This seems to indicate the physical creation. Since it only say before the world was created, not of the world.

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"Before the world" in these verses is referring to the Council in the pre-existence, where the Plan of Salvation.... Happiness was presented.

Assignments were made during this council, of which the creation of this earth was planned and executed.

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And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things?

???

UD

Hence why I said "typically." Context helps.

Interestingly, we find the word used most often by my count in Isaiah, which book Nephi favors.

Old Testament

Psalms

(about 15 times, the most noteworthy as seen below:)

89:11- ...The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the aworld and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them

90:2- ...Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst aformed the earth and the world, even from beverlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah

...That made the world as a wilderness...

...that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

...for when thy cjudgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

...we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

(appx. 10 more in addition to those above)

Samuel

...for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

...And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

Jeremiah

(Thrice, 2 of 3 dealing with creation:)

...He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

We find it also in 1 Chronicles (once), Job (thrice), Ecclesiastes (once), Lamentations (once,) and Nahum (close to Nahom?) (once.)

Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 1 (four times; additionally we see "worlds.")

Moses 4 (one)

Moses 5 (three)

Moses 6 (nine)

Moses 7 (three)

Abraham 3 (once)

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"Before the world" in these verses is referring to the Council in the pre-existence, where the

Plan of Salvation.... Happiness was presented.

Assignments were made during this council, of which the creation of this earth was planned

and executed.

So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was

not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?

Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object

ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?

When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?

UD

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So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was

not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?

Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object

ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?

When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?

UD

It might also note that it is very possible and resonable that when in the Bible the "world" pertains only to this world. So the univers could very well have been physically there and even the neighboring solar system could have been there for many years before this earth was created.

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So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was

not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?

Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object

ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?

When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?

UD

It has many meanings in LDS theology.

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It might also note that it is very possible and resonable that when in the Bible the "world" pertains only to this world. So the univers could very well have been physically there and even the neighboring solar system could have been there for many years before this earth was created.

That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to

the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.

The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth"

is "the world" of our OT English translations.

That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and

mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."

When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference

there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.

UD

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That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to

the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.

The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth"

is "the world" of our OT English translations.

That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and

mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."

When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference

there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.

UD

Keeping in mind that what we read isn't always what they believed or understood, can you comfortably assert you completely understand Old Testament period cosmology?

Also, it becomes less problematic when we check out the Book of Moses, as I referenced before. And the word itself has many different meanings in LDS theology.

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That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to

the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.

The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth"

is "the world" of our OT English translations.

That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and

mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."

When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference

there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.

UD

I suppose in some instances truth is truth no matter what planet you live on huh?

I geuss the real question is: does what happen on this planet happen in every instance on another planet?

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And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things?

???

UD

They are a means to an end... A stepping stone to greater things. The temporal must be known for some of us to be refined into something that will make our Father proud.

What did that pesky Nephite opine? Something about opposition in all something-or-other... my reformed Egyptian is rusty.

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They are a means to an end... A stepping stone to greater things. The temporal must be known for some of us to be refined into something that will make our Father proud.

hmmmmmm....

I was never taught this stuff. If there is a "plurality of worlds," then I suppose there must be some

sort of boundary markers between them?

But if worlds are merely a means to an end, then why, in Genesis, does God say that the heavens and

the earth are "good?"

And if Mormons anticipate "organizing worlds" and populating them with their own spirit children, then

would not those worlds also be "good," and not just a necessary task, required for greater exaltation?

But, all of that latter day stuff to one side, why does the term "world" pop up so much in the first part

of the BoM, where we would expect that the Israelite writers would not yet have encountered any

reference to the Greek "kosmos?"

UD

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hmmmmmm....

I was never taught this stuff. If there is a "plurality of worlds," then I suppose there must be some

sort of boundary markers between them?

Dunno. You were probably never taught this stuff though because this is the heretical gospel of Stuart. I tends to be very esoteric as it is most likely a one-way ticket to Outer Darkness.

But if worlds are merely a means to an end, then why, in Genesis, does God say that the heavens and

the earth are "good?"

Did He say they were "good" during the spiritual creation, or the physical creation? Was it before "the world" (i.e. sin) was on the scene?

And if Mormons anticipate "organizing worlds" and populating them with their own spirit children, then

would not those worlds also be "good," and not just a necessary task, required for greater exaltation?

Behold this is my work and glory... Sometimes "work and glory" require the potter to get a little clay on His hands. Then again, I suppose He could always pawn such things off on Sarakiel.

But, all of that latter day stuff to one side, why does the term "world" pop up so much in the first part

of the BoM, where we would expect that the Israelite writers would not yet have encountered any

reference to the Greek "kosmos?"

UD

Joseph's 19th Century Protestantism leaking through...?

Edited to add:

Please stop making me think Rabbi Broadhurst. It hurts my head.

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So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was

not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?

Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object

ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?

When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?

UD

Within the context of these scriptures, "world" does not refer to the overall universe, but to our earth, including most likely the solar system. "World" can also be a generic term meaning the secular society in which mortals inhabit, good and evil intermixed.

We are in the world, but not of the world.

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