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JohnBWalt

Christ Was A Man And Became A God?

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I don't understand what is so difficult about understanding that an All Powerful Father can make His Childrens gods. I mean He has all power doesnt He? He has told the believers "Ye are gods" directly in the Bible. He has promised them power, glory, dominion etc. Basically everything He has.

Yet you seem to think God cant keep His promises. What's up with that?

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Zakuska,

1) I am "Manifest" in my son Johhny. That Does not make me my son.

When you "manifest" in your son ... do you dwell in your son ... do you do the works ... like the Father and the Son (John 14:10)?

John.14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2) But while he was here on Earth he could not Die if he were a God. So he must have been a Man.

While on earth he could "die" if he were God, his body and his spirit could seperate at death. Jesus was God and Jesus was man.

He must of been God because he had the power to raise up his body at death (John 17:17,18).

John.10

[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

3) God the father was manifest through his Son jesus Christ the same way I am manifest through my son.

God the father was manifest through his Son jesus Christ, "God was in Christ" (2Cor 5:19). In Christ dwelt ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9).

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Col.2

[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

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Avatar4321,

I don't understand what is so difficult about understanding that an All Powerful Father can make His Childrens gods.

The Father DID NOT make his Son Jesus "gods". Christ was God before his incarnation, during his incarnation here on earth, and was God after his resurrection.

I mean He has all power doesnt He? He has told the believers "Ye are gods" directly in the Bible.

Men can becomes "gods" by partaking of the divine nature. Men were NOT "gods" before being born.

He has promised them power, glory, dominion etc. Basically everything He has.

He did not promise them being God. God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16). Christ was not "a God", he was God, the God that became flesh (John 1:1,14).

Yet you seem to think God cant keep His promises. What's up with that?

God can keep His promises ... God is unique, there will be NO God formed after him (Isa 43:10).

Isa.43

[10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

[11] I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

[12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

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When we see Jesus's role in creation, it appears that Jesus was eternally God--- a Godhead member.

THis means that Jesus did not become a god-- rather has even been God and has held His position in the ruling Godhead--from all eternity. This means that Jesus did not become a god-- rather has always been God.

Romans 1: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

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Hick Preacher,

This means that Jesus did not become a god-- rather has always been God.

I would add that Jesus is God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2).

Pss.90

[2] Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

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Another Zakuska/Johnny debate. Sure to be full of warm and fuzzing feelings all around.

Sargon

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johnny:

What did Christ receive from His Father? Part of what His Father had, most, or all?

Second: What does it mean to become a "joint-heir"?

Third: What does it mean to become a "joint-heir with Jesus Christ"?

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LifeOnaPlate,

What did Christ receive from His Father? Part of what His Father had, most, or all?

Christ received "all power" (Matt 28:18).

Matt.28

[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Second: What does it mean to become a "joint-heir"?

It means to be become a child of God through adoption (Rom 8:17)

Rom.8

[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Third: What does it mean to become a "joint-heir with Jesus Christ"?

To inherit the kingdom of God with Jesus Christ (Matt 25:34).

Matt.25

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

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LifeOnaPlate,

Christ received "all power" (Matt 28:18).

Matt.28

[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

It means to be become a child of God through adoption (Rom 8:17)

Rom.8

[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

To inherit the kingdom of God with Jesus Christ (Matt 25:34).

Matt.25

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mormons would call this "becoming gods." So at least we are agreed, at least on the terms.

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LifeOnaPlate,

Mormons would call this "becoming gods."

Did Jesus become a god?

If so please explain the process ... if not please explain why he is an exception to this process of "becoming gods."

So at least we are agreed, at least on the terms.

I believe where Mormons and I would disagree is if Jesus become a God.

For me,

- Jesus did NOT become "a god", he is God from everlasting to everlasting, he is the divine nature.

- Men can become "a god" by partaking of the divine nature.

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Zakuska,

When you "manifest" in your son ... do you dwell in your son ... do you do the works ... like the Father and the Son (John 14:10)?

John.14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

He does the works that he sees me do. Thats how I am manifest in him.

John 5: 19

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

While on earth he could "die" if he were God, his body and his spirit could seperate at death. Jesus was God and Jesus was man.

All except the fact that a God cannot die. so then Christ couldn't have been a God.

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Why are you guys arguing with Johnny? Has it ever had a positive outcome, even when you have proved him false up and down? Did he ever change his mind? It really is a waste of time.

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Zakuska,

What do you mean by a "Man Nature"?

After the resurrection Jesus has a glorified body of flesh and bone.

Oh, I get it. God has a glorified body of flesh and bone.

Where is it now?

Bernard

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Zakuska,

All except the fact that a God cannot die. so then Christ couldn't have been a God.

Jesus was man and God.

- Being a man his human nature could die (the body and spirit seperate).

- Being God he had the divine power to effect his own Resurrection.

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Bernard Gui,

Oh, I get it. God has a glorified body of flesh and bone.

Where is it now?

In the heavenly city (Heb 12:22-24).

Heb.12

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

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Did the man part of Jesus become God? Certainly his spirit part was already God.

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Bernard Gui,

In the heavenly city (Heb 12:22-24).

Heb.12

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So you agree, God has a body of flesh and bone.

Where is the heavenly city?

Bernard

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Bernard Gui,

So you agree, God has a body of flesh and bone.

Where is the heavenly city?

The heavenly city is in the heavens ...

I believe that the Son of God has a body of flesh and bones. God was in Christ (1Tim 3:16; 2Cor 5:19). God was manfiest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16).

I DO NOT believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones like the Mormon Church teaches. Christ said "God is a Spirit" and that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (John 4:24; Luke 24:34). The Father dwelt in the Son and did the works (John 14:10).

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Dale,

Did the man part of Jesus become God? Certainly his spirit part was already God.

Jesus was NOT part God, he was fully God (Col 2:9).

Col.2

[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

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So God the Father and Jesus are the same being; Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, but God the Father does not, yet they are the same being?

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So God the Father and Jesus are the same being; Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, but God the Father does not, yet they are the same being?

As Mormons teach-- Jesus existed as the being Jehovah.

Also the idenity of the Father in Heaven is Jehovah.

The Father Who Sent Jesus is Jehovah

Here is how the text is defined from a Strong's Concordance--

ISA 61 :1 The Spirit of the Lord ( Adonay # 136) GOD is upon me; because the LORD ( Jehovah# 3036) hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

In Luke 4 Jesus declares His idenity and Mission-- and who sent Him--citing back to Isa 61

In Luke 4 Jesus is claiming His authority based on the idea that Jehovah sent Him to preach and heal-- and soforth.

17And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

In the Gospel of John-- Jesus says that He is doing the teaching, preaching, and healing and other good works that the Father sent Him to do.

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fatherâ??s which sent me.

1Jo 4:14

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

It is simple---- Jehovah is the Heavenly Fatherâ??

Jehovah, Declares Jesus to be His Son

Jehovah declaring the Messiah to be His Son--

Psalm 2: 7

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

And the Apostle declares that Psalm 2:7 is the prophecy of Jehovah calling Jesus His Son

Heb 1:5

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Acts 13:30-33 30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

So yes indeed Jesus the being Jehovah and the Father is the same Jehovah.

This is one of the exoteric teaching of the Bible. The revelation of a great mystery!

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johnny,

I am afraid that Zakuska is right. You can make all the allegations you like about LDS belief being inconsistent with the Bible in this regard and it will yet remain untrue. There is clear biblical evidence for the concept (Kenotic Christology, from the Greek kenosis which of course appears at Philippians 2:7 [i.e. transliterated, kenoo]) which Zakuska is relating not to mention multiple biblical passages which indicate a subordinate relationship between the Father and the Son (take for instance the rather obvious â??the Father is greater than I.â? [RSV John 14:28]).

I think that your accusations stem from your undisclosed dependence upon creedal affirmations in your interpretation of the biblical text (you make clear allusions to historically orthodox concepts such as the Trinity and dual-nature Christology). Unfettered by such post-biblical doctrinal innovations LDS Christians are free to see other possibilities. There exists more than enough biblical evidence to consistently interpret the Bible in ways other than that which Nicaea and Chalcedon dictate. Therefore although you can certainly accuse LDS Christians of being inconsistent with the creeds you cannot accuse them of being inconsistent with the Bible. You simple cannot support the accusation.

_________________________

Matt Carlson

â??Unfortunately, in an argument the one who talks longest, loudest, and last often comes out looking like â??the winner,â?? even though he or she may not have argued well at all. This is because if no one has answered the argumentâ??if no one has actually shown that the argument is weak or unlikely, we are left thinking: the arguer could be right and, moreover, no one can point to anything wrong, so.... This is why we bother to dispute a point at allâ??if it goes undisputed we and others may be subtly or even heavily influenced by it, may in fact be weakened in our original disagreement with it, and may find it hard to refuse other arguments or even calls to action that derive from it. All of which can lead us to feeling that we have no choice but to say and do things that we do not, at heart, chose or believe in.â?

S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies, Sixth Edition (Boston, MA: Bedford/St. Martinâ??s, 2000), pp. 5-6.

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Not to mention the fact that if God was in Christ... where did Christ "Acsend" to after speaking with Mary at the tomb?

Did he turn himself inside out and implode like a pig-lizard?

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LifeOnaPlate,

So God the Father and Jesus are the same being; Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, but God the Father does not, yet they are the same being?

What do you mean by "being", if you can please provide some scriptures to help me understand what you mean?

They are not the same person, the Father is distinct from the Son.

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Matt Carlson,

I am afraid that Zakuska is right. You can make all the allegations you like about LDS belief being inconsistent with the Bible in this regard and it will yet remain untrue.

Mormon belief is not consistent with the Bible ... Jesus did not become God ... Jesus is God from everlasting to everlasting.

There is clear biblical evidence for the concept (Kenotic Christology, from the Greek kenosis which of course appears at Philippians 2:7 [i.e. transliterated, kenoo]) which Zakuska is relating not to mention multiple biblical passages which indicate a subordinate relationship between the Father and the Son (take for instance the rather obvious â??the Father is greater than I.â? [RSV John 14:28]).

While Jesus was on earth, he was the servant of the Father, the Father was greater than the Son.

When Jesus was resurrected the Son's glory is equal to the Father's glory.

I think that your accusations stem from your undisclosed dependence upon creedal affirmations in your interpretation of the biblical text (you make clear allusions to historically orthodox concepts such as the Trinity and dual-nature Christology).

The creeds are completely consistent with scripture. My accusations are completely consistent with scripture. If you think otherwise then please back up your words with some scriptures.

Unfettered by such post-biblical doctrinal innovations LDS Christians are free to see other possibilities.

The problem is that the Mormons post-biblical doctrinal innovations are not consistent with the Bible. Jesus did NOT become God.

You simple cannot support the accusation.

My accursatin is simple to support, Jesus is God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2).

Pss.90

[2] Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

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