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Christ Was A Man And Became A God?


JohnBWalt

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LifeOnaPlate

You do realize the Greek word translated as "Word" in John 1 could be translated into many different words, right?

I as using "Word" as defined by the lexicon. The lexicon says "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds."

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LifeOnaPlate

I as using "Word" as defined by the lexicon. The lexicon says "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds."

Huh? What lexicon is this? I just linked you to a lexicon that differed measurably from what you just quoted.

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LifeOnaPlate

This lexicon (see below):

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

I find this, at your link, from Strongs:

logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work

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Avoision. It proves that man can see God.
Acts 17 proves that one God created

Genesis 1 and 2 shows a plurality of Gods created, especially from the logic of creation ex nihilo. Acts 17 simply shows that man can see God directly.

Sorry wrong verse, it should be Malachi 2:10

The Hebrews had not been introduced to the Father, hence to them, the only God was Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ. Earlier Hebrews had known of the separate God, the Father (Gen 32:7-9 for example) but they lost that knowledge or the privilege of having it.

Isaiah 44:2 is consistent with Genesis 1:26. Isaiah 44:2 reveals that God was alone during creation. Like I said earlier the "us" is God's Word, God's Wisdom.

You have so far been unable to make the leap from an attribute of God to the personification of Wisdom. An error in correlation on your part.

Wisdom is not a seperate God.

Amen! hence your Gen 1-2 hypothesis is false.

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BCSpace,

Genesis 1 and 2 shows a plurality of Gods created, especially from the logic of creation ex nihilo. Acts 17 simply shows that man can see God directly.

Please explain how Genesis 1 and 2 shows a plurality of Gods created ...

Please explain how Acts 17 simply shows that man can see God directly ...

The Hebrews had not been introduced to the Father, hence to them, the only God was Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ. Earlier Hebrews had known of the separate God, the Father (Gen 32:7-9 for example) but they lost that knowledge or the privilege of having it.

What is your point ... Malachi 2:10 reveals one God created ... Mormon scripture reveals many Gods were present during creation.

You have so far been unable to make the leap from an attribute of God to the personification of Wisdom. An error in correlation on your part.

No error ... I am consistent with scripture. Proverbs 8:22 says "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old."

Amen! hence your Gen 1-2 hypothesis is false.

How can it be false, please back up your words.

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BCSpace,

Mormonism contradicts the Bible ... the Bible reveals the LORD created angels and Mormonism reveals the LORD DID NOT create angels.

- Psalm 148:2,5 reveals the LORD created all angels

- Col 1:16 reveals Christ is BEFORE all things, he created all things that ARE IN heaven.

- Ne 9:6 reveals the LORD made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host

- Mormonism reveals that the LORD is an angel born of heavenly parents

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LifeOnaPlate,

Try again ... at the link ... enter "word" in the Strong's Concordance - King James Version section ...press search ... goto John 1 and it will say exaltly what I posted earlier.

No dice, brother. I was entering "logos," which is what the Greek says. "The Word" is an interpolation of later translators, my good man. It ain't "the Word" at all; it's logos.

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Mal.2

[10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

This does not say that only one God was involved in the creation. It says that "one God" created "us" (His children) so that we all have "one father." It does not say that other Gods were not involved in the creation of the earth, seas, plants, etc.

Note also that Genesis 1:26 specifically says that others ("us") were involved with the creation of man. Whenever was there a Father without a Mother? Therefore, even Malachi's statement must be understood not to prohibit the involvement of at least one other being in the creation of man.

Isaiah 44:2 is consistent with Genesis 1:26. Isaiah 44:2 reveals that God was alone during creation. Like I said earlier the "us" is God's Word, God's Wisdom.

If God was "alone in the creation," then the Word and Wisdom were NOT there. God cannot be both alone and with others (making an "us"). The use of the word "us" clearly means God was NOT alone, no matter who or what "us" might be.

See above ... it is important to understand who the "us" is in Genesis 1:26.

Indeed, it is. The "us" here are other Gods assisting in the creation.

In other words, God's "Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1). This does not mean "TWO Gods" because "the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

If the Word was with God so that there was an "us," and was also himself God, then numerically there are two Gods, at least, not one. If there is only one God, then there is no "us."

Wisdom is not a separate God.

The Bible does not say this. This is merely your interpretation, not the word of God.

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Lachoneus,

This does not say that only one God was involved in the creation. It says that "one God" created "us" (His children) so that we all have "one father." It does not say that other Gods were not involved in the creation of the earth, seas, plants, etc.

And it does not say that "other Gods" were involved.

Note also that Genesis 1:26 specifically says that others ("us") were involved with the creation of man. Whenever was there a Father without a Mother? Therefore, even Malachi's statement must be understood not to prohibit the involvement of at least one other being in the creation of man.

Angels were created without a Mother. Angels were created with a command from the LORD (Psalm 148:2,5).

If God was "alone in the creation," then the Word and Wisdom were NOT there. God cannot be both alone and with others (making an "us"). The use of the word "us" clearly means God was NOT alone, no matter who or what "us" might be.

God's Word and God's Wisdom were with God. "Word" and "Wisdom" are not seperate Gods.

Indeed, it is. The "us" here are other Gods assisting in the creation.

No where in scripture does it refer to the "us" as "other Gods".

If the Word was with God so that there was an "us," and was also himself God, then numerically there are two Gods, at least, not one. If there is only one God, then there is no "us."

There can be a person with a person, then numerically there are two persons.

The Bible does not say this. This is merely your interpretation, not the word of God.

For you to say "two Gods" is merely your interpretation, not the word of God.

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And it does not say that "other Gods" were involved.

You are right that Malachi does not say that (nor did I claim that he did). But you claimed Malachi said only one God was involved in the creation. As I showed, he did not say that.

Angels were created without a Mother.

This is a false statement. The Bible makes no such statement.

Angels were created with a command from the LORD (Psalm 148:2,5).

And your point is . . .? That God commanded that they be created does NOT tell us the process by which they were created. Unfortunately, there are lots of things the Bible does not tell us. This is just one of them. One more reason we need prophets today.

God's Word and God's Wisdom were with God.

If the Word and Wisdom were with God, then your interpretation of Isaiah that God was alone in the creation is very wrong.

No where in scripture does it refer to the "us" as "other Gods".

Of course it does. In Genesis 1:26 the Bible reveals that God created man in "our image," the "our" referring to the "us" mentioned earlier in the sentence. In verse 27 we see that man was created in the image of "Gods" (remember that "Elohim" is plural = "Gods") - male AND female. There were at least two Gods involved, one male, one female.

There can be a person with a person, then numerically there are two persons.

Yes, exactly. And numerically that's two Gods also, or do you deny the divinity of Christ?

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LifeOnaPlate,

And your point is ...

The term "the Word" (Greek logos) ...

Greek logos means many things. Why did the translator select "Word"? What made that more appropriate than any other word? I tell you: there is more to "the Word" than what you have herein asserted. Your "and your point is..." and fundamental dismissal of the subject of translation etc. is telling. It says "johnny doesn't want to look outside of what he already believes is in the Bible." By doing so you have closed the mouth of God, if you ask me.

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Lachoneus,

And your point is . . .? That God commanded that they be created does NOT tell us the process by which they were created. Unfortunately, there are lots of things the Bible does not tell us. This is just one of them. One more reason we need prophets today.

The point is that NO heavenly mother was invovled in the creation of angels. The process was that the LORD commanded and all the angels were created (Psalm 148:2,5).

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

If the Word and Wisdom were with God, then your interpretation of Isaiah that God was alone in the creation is very wrong.

It all depends how you look at "Word" and "Wisdom", John 1:18 says the "Word" "which is in the bosom of the Father". The "Word" is not a seperate God, but was in the bosom of the Father.

Of course it does. In Genesis 1:26 the Bible reveals that God created man in "our image," the "our" referring to the "us" mentioned earlier in the sentence. In verse 27 we see that man was created in the image of "Gods" (remember that "Elohim" is plural = "Gods") - male AND female. There were at least two Gods involved, one male, one female.

Genesis 1 does not say in the image of "Gods", it says in "our image". The words "male and female" is what God created, it does not mean a Male God and a Female God.

Gen.1

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Yes, exactly. And numerically that's two Gods also, or do you deny the divinity of Christ?

Two does not imply "two Gods". "The Word" was not a seperate God, but "the Word" was in the bosom of the Father.

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Lachoneus,

The point is that NO heavenly mother was invovled in the creation of angels. The process was that the LORD commanded and all the angels were created (Psalm 148:2,5).

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Ok, so let's say Bill Gates says "let's develop a new operating system better than XP, better than Vista, better than anything ever made before. I want it to do this and this, etc."

A team of programmers meets, they develop, etc.

Etc.

It can just as soon be said "Bill Gates commanded, and it was created."

Did Bill thusly do everything? Does that one sentence describe the hours of work associated with the creation of this software? No. Neither does your quoted Psalm prove anything about the process other than God initiated it.

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LifeOnaPlate,

Greek logos means many things. Why did the translator select "Word"? What made that more appropriate than any other word?

The term "the Word" (Greek logos) combines God's dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity (Proverbs).

I tell you: there is more to "the Word" than what you have herein asserted. Your "and your point is..." and fundamental dismissal of the subject of translation etc. is telling.

The Logos for John was not the Stoic meaning that it so often had for Philo: it is not the impersonal power that sustains the world, nor the law that regulates it. The Word for John is the Word of God, he holds with Jewish tradition, the theology of the Book of Wisdom, of the Psalms, of the Prophetical Books, and of Genesis; he perfects the idea and transforms it by showing that this creative Word which from all eternity was in God and was God, took flesh and dwelt among men.

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LifeOnaPlate,

Neither does your quoted Psalm prove anything about the process other than God initiated it.

The process is described in the Genesis and the process is described in other scriptures (see below):

Psalm 33

[6] By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Neh.9

[6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

2Cor.4

[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Job.33

[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

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LifeOnaPlate,

The term "the Word" (Greek logos) combines God's dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity (Proverbs).

The Logos for John was not the Stoic meaning that it so often had for Philo: it is not the impersonal power that sustains the world, nor the law that regulates it. The Word for John is the Word of God, he holds with Jewish tradition, the theology of the Book of Wisdom, of the Psalms, of the Prophetical Books, and of Genesis; he perfects the idea and transforms it by showing that this creative Word which from all eternity was in God and was God, took flesh and dwelt among men.

But the Bible doesn't say that; it says "logos." Your interpretation of what that means is a different story.

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LifeOnaPlate,

What is your point ... what is your interpretation?

My point is your contracted sectarian interpretation is not representative of what the Bible actually says, which is unfortunate for you because the Bible is all you have. Without the Living water I fear you're up the dry creek with a paddle that will get you nowhere.

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LifeOnaPlate,

My point is your contracted sectarian interpretation is not representative of what the Bible actually says, which is unfortunate for you because the Bible is all you have. Without the Living water I fear you're up the dry creek with a paddle that will get you nowhere.

What is sectarian interpretation and how does it differ with the interpretation I presented?

My point is representative of how John is using it and how the theology of the Book Psalms, the Prophetical Books, and Genesis uses it.

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The point is that NO heavenly mother was invovled in the creation of angels. The process was that the LORD commanded and all the angels were created (Psalm 148:2,5).

This is a false statement, as I have already explained.

It all depends how you look at "Word" and "Wisdom", John 1:18 says the "Word" "which is in the bosom of the Father". The "Word" is not a seperate God, but was in the bosom of the Father.

No, truth does not depend on one's point of view. In John 1:1 God says the Word was "with" God and was also "God." That is two Gods.

Genesis 1 does not say in the image of "Gods", it says in "our image".

Yes it does. It says ". . . the image of God" (Gen 1:27) "Elohim" is a plural = "Gods." In other words, ". . . the image of Gods"

The words "male and female" is what God created, it does not mean a Male God and a Female God.

Yes it does, as I have already explained.

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Lachoneus,

This is a false statement, as I have already explained.

Your explanation does not fit the scripture.

What part is false ... are you saying that Psalm 148 DOES NOT say the LORD commanded and all the angels were created. This is consistent with scriptures such as Psalm 33:6, Col 1:16,17; Job 33:4; and Neh. 9:6.

No, truth does not depend one's point of view. In John 1:1 God says the Word was "with" God and was also "God." That is two Gods.

It is not two Gods John 1 says the Word was in the bosom of the Father. In the New Testament instead of the Word in the bosom of the Father, it says the Father was in Son. If the Father was in the Son that does not mean two seperate Gods.

Yes it does. It says ". . . the image of God" (Gen 1:27) "Elohim" is a plural = "Gods." In other words, ". . . the image of Gods"

Elohim is a compound unity or a united one. God is one but not solitary. "Elohim" does not mean many Gods.

Yes it does, as I have already explained.

Again your explanation does not fit the verse ... verse 27 says "male and female created he them" ... it other words male and female he created them.

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