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How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

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Interestingly enough I came to the conclusion while a member that if people weren't obeying the Church they clearly didn't believe it was true. Think about it, who would risk an eternity of happiness with one's family simply because they didn't want to home teach, pay tithing or obey some other 'commandment'. Since I saw few members, even among the active, who were willing to always do their home teaching, magnify their callings, or give up other minor 'indescretions' I concluded painfully that most members didn't even really believe the Church was true. I figured if the threat of hell and loosing one's exaltation were as real to someone as a man standing in front of them threatening their life would anyone really choose to disobey?

I know people who smoke, who know that it will take many years off their lives, so why can't somebody "know" the Church is true and still sin and not do their best?

The people who smoke, for whatever reason, believe that smoking is more important that living those extra years and those who sin, for whatever reason, believe that those sins are more important than making sure ones salvation.

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Interestingly enough I came to the conclusion while a member that if people weren't obeying the Church they clearly didn't believe it was true. Think about it, who would risk an eternity of happiness with one's family simply because they didn't want to home teach, pay tithing or obey some other 'commandment'. Since I saw few members, even among the active, who were willing to always do their home teaching, magnify their callings, or give up other minor 'indescretions' I concluded painfully that most members didn't even really believe the Church was true. I figured if the threat of hell and loosing one's exaltation were as real to someone as a man standing in front of them threatening their life would anyone really choose to disobey?

From the other side of the fence, I've known plenty of hell-raising Mormons who were inactive, but when pressed would acknowledge they really believed in the church and just might return, some day.

"Yeah, I'm partying now and working through some issues, but I think I'll end up being a good & active member again."

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I know people who smoke, who know that it will take many years off their lives, so why can't somebody "know" the Church is true and still sin and not do their best?

The people who smoke, for whatever reason, believe that smoking is more important that living those extra years and those who sin, for whatever reason, believe that those sins are more important than making sure ones salvation.

Smoking can be a perfectly rational choice. If smoking makes me feel better and keeps me skinny I may prefer that to potential extra years of life. I say potential because there is no guarantee smoking will shorten my life and if I don't smoke there is no guarantee that I will live longer. Besides, regardless of whether I smoke or not I'm not going to live forever. Now personally I don't smoke because I don't think there is any benefit to me now or later. The point is that you are comparing something that involves unknown probability and finite with something that claims to be eternal and sure.

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Well based on the calculationals of the now famous John Geesters mathematic formula for missing papyri presented at all the insincere apologeticals which has now been proven (to none other than the notorious "His Bishopness"), I do believe that it would approximate about almost, and quite frankly in the area of 12,453.675,567. Now hold on you say! There aren't that many dang Mormons yet. Oh but you fail to understand that the projections into the future of universal.......NOTE THAT, UNIVERSAL dominion and conversion, this is a mere pinch compared to the projected 342,456,345,000,675,788,345,321,434,456,897,909,809,567,456,656,767,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Mormons in the next mere decade. So the propositional that there are MANY who have left over historical issues is mere child's play compared to the enormously moregigantic number who have converted due precisely to historical situations within and about Mormonism.

Lord "SOMEone please get this calculator outta my hands!" Kerry

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How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

Historical reasons? almost none

hysterical reasons? probably a few

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So in reality their exodus has nothing to do with history or the church's truth claims but with their own desires and wishes. The church's history problems, like Polygamy, just serve as a convenient seal of approval to start the argument with.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? No one desires or wishes to remain affiliated with an organization they feel has defrauded them, or lied to them, or is not built on anything but shifting sand.

From where I am standing that is a desire and a wish that should be acknowledged and respected.

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What comes first, the chicken or the egg? No one desires or wishes to remain affiliated with an organization they feel has defrauded them, or lied to them, or is not built on anything but shifting sand.

From where I am standing that is a desire and a wish that should be acknowledged and respected.

The chicken. Every thing was created with the seed within itself.

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What comes first, the chicken or the egg? No one desires or wishes to remain affiliated with an organization they feel has defrauded them, or lied to them, or is not built on anything but shifting sand.

From where I am standing that is a desire and a wish that should be acknowledged and respected.

Ah, but is it possible that the sand on the surface may be shifting while the actual sandbar never moves and holds the sand more or less in the same place?

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Interestingly enough I came to the conclusion while a member that if people weren't obeying the Church they clearly didn't believe it was true. Think about it, who would risk an eternity of happiness with one's family simply because they didn't want to home teach, pay tithing or obey some other 'commandment'. Since I saw few members, even among the active, who were willing to always do their home teaching, magnify their callings, or give up other minor 'indescretions' I concluded painfully that most members didn't even really believe the Church was true. I figured if the threat of hell and loosing one's exaltation were as real to someone as a man standing in front of them threatening their life would anyone really choose to disobey?

Your forgetting the atonement in all this. We are all going to fall short. I'm not goint to get 100% on my hometeaching every month while being perfect in temple activity and church callings. We are judged by the intent of our hearts and whether we're moving closer to God or away from him.

A patriarch once told me the story of a lady, a little rough around the edges, who joined the church. She had a bad temper, swore at the drop of a hat and was still trying to kick coffee. Yet she knew all this and was trying to stop. When was she ready for the Celestial kingdom? The moment she walked out of the waters of Baptism with a desire to change.

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I believe the more telling question here is. If the 3153 unsuspecting members of your stake were all of a sudden exposed to these "historical issues" - how many would continue to hold thier belief in Mormonisim the same way after a year. I believe this information for many of the people in your stake, would grow into issues. at the very least, knowing all of the issues requires a believing mormon to intensify faith, and accept many more unknowns than the standard run of the mill chapel mormon. If you are a believing mormon, imagine explaining Helen Mar, or Fanny Alger to your 14 yr old daughter. or the LGT to a group of 16 yr. old priests, or detailing the Nauvoo expositor to your local Relief Society group. imagine your SP starting a conference with a testimony about celestial polygamy..

~evolving

Most churches have historical skeletons in their closets and the lds church is no exception. What is sad about it all is that the lds church comes across as pure as snow with their historical issues. The issues are not that big a deal and what is sad is the understanding that such issues should not be discussed by those who are in the know. I think that you would find that many members are smarter than you think when it comes to church history but such members have a strong testimony of the gospel and not of human infalliability.

Whoever leaves over historical issues must be a firm believer in human perfection since history is made of living individuals who are now dead or alive and yet, very much imperfect.

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But, like I said, MOST people I know who left the Church couldn't or wouldn't abide its standards. I have heard many, many, many times that when one left the Church, ones wages went up ten percent, that one could eat on Fast Sunday, and that one could do more recreational things on Sunday with their families. There were even those who said that home teaching was a waste of their valuable time and even reading scriptures, while they taught great lessons, weren't necessary, that there were plenty of other good books to read.

I completely agree. I know someone who is leaving and who has as one of his fuels for the fire the fact that missionaries run from door to door once in a while and that is "embarrassing". It's just not "cool" to be associated with.

That and drinking isn't wrong, and Church is boring. Football is much more interesting, it's not "strange". I think though, that tithing was the first reason, everything just followed. Sharing isn't fun sometimes.

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I think that is an excellent rhetorical question.

"Where is the evidence of a historical Jesus?" is not a rhetorical question at all. In my case, it's a sincere one. At this point, I find myself mostly convinced one such individual existed, but that the "miracles" ascribed to him seem to be pagan appropriations.

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Two guesses. I feel that the ones who DO leave over historical issues have ultimately more integrity.

<_<:P:unsure:

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Well said freakin-man,

You really do not need building after building when you don't neet them.

but how come this foresight was not shown in Temple building era, where most of those temples now operate appointment only basis.

The need for appointments mainly stems from the fact that temples are smaller and sessions reach capacity.

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I would say none (at first) are leaving the church over historical issues. First of all if they are in the church perhaps they had some time in their lives a testimony a confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Now whatever reason they leave the church it probably isn't the reason there more than likely was a process. Such as I want to pay my tithing in one lump sum at the end of the year and then get upset because the stake president disagrees with me then I throw a hissy fit because of Joseph's polyandry. I think most people leave the church because of sin or ignorance of issues are not active and another religion persuades my spouse and I am right there with her because I want to keep the peace in my home...

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Well you have an other alternative than trusting Grant Palmer. You can trust official information.

Unfortunately official information in this regard was never forthcoming. My guess is (judging from internet)

there is a huge exodus which overwhelms offices of Mr. Dodge. I am not exaggarating this.

Call for source...I did not know the church did exit interviews on people leaving the church.

Pa Pa :P

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"Where is the evidence of a historical Jesus?" is not a rhetorical question at all. In my case, it's a sincere one. At this point, I find myself mostly convinced one such individual existed, but that the "miracles" ascribed to him seem to be pagan appropriations.

Well, maybe I haven't looked into it as much as you have, but you do know that the name Jesus was like the name "Mike" during that time?

And I suppose the Muslims believe in Him as a prophet, but don't they just believe in His story?

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I would say none (at first) are leaving the church over historical issues.

Wrong, I was TBM through and through and didn't know a thing about polyandry, BoA, kinderhook, etc. It was the historical issues alone which have caused / are causing my exodus.

I completely agree. I know someone who is leaving and who has as one of his fuels for the fire the fact that missionaries run from door to door once in a while and that is "embarrassing". It's just not "cool" to be associated with.

That and drinking isn't wrong, and Church is boring. Football is much more interesting, it's not "strange". I think though, that tithing was the first reason, everything just followed. Sharing isn't fun sometimes.

Might I ask who this mysterious person is ? :P

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Whoever leaves over historical issues must be a firm believer in human perfection since history is made of living individuals who are now dead or alive and yet, very much imperfect.

This is my first post and I don't want to offend. I too am on my way out of the church mainly because of historical "issues" with the church. My feelings aren't that people need to be perfect or even prophets being perfect for that matter. My issue comes down to whether Joseph Smith was a scam artist who made up things as he went along or if he was a true prophet of god that actually had the vision. Based on some of historical evidence he comes across more as a scam artist (much like television evangelicists of today) This was history I was unaware of growing up as a member of the church. I only found out about this history though the internet. Now that I look back on my efforts in this church my belief system has been shaken.

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This is my first post and I don't want to offend. I too am on my way out of the church mainly because of historical "issues" with the church. My feelings aren't that people need to be perfect or even prophets being perfect for that matter. My issue comes down to whether Joseph Smith was a scam artist who made up things as he went along or if he was a true prophet of god that actually had the vision. Based on some of historical evidence he comes across more as a scam artist (much like television evangelicists of today) This was history I was unaware of growing up as a member of the church. I only found out about this history though the internet. Now that I look back on my efforts in this church my belief system has been shaken.

Be sure to tread lightly.

Are there any specific things you are concerned with? I suggest starting a thread. Remember: respect breeds respect.

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I think it is a paradigm to, for example, say that polyandry is a negative mark. I personally find it to be a positive possibility, as I expect to have two husbands in my lifetime, and I should not like to lose either of them (I know, in the polyandry, sealing was only to one man; but it is a step in the right direction of possibility for me to have the wish of my heart).

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I think it is a paradigm to, for example, say that polyandry is a negative mark. I personally find it to be a positive possibility, as I expect to have two husbands in my lifetime, and I should not like to lose either of them (I know, in the polyandry, sealing was only to one man; but it is a step in the right direction of possibility for me to have the wish of my heart).

Sorry, but your views do not align with my ethnocentric view of what is right and wrong in marriage relationships. Thus, you must be wrong!

:P

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This is my first post and I don't want to offend.

...and you didn't! Great start!

I too am on my way out of the church mainly because of historical "issues" with the church. My feelings aren't that people need to be perfect or even prophets being perfect for that matter. My issue comes down to whether Joseph Smith was a scam artist who made up things as he went along or if he was a true prophet of god that actually had the vision.

Sometimes its hard to know the difference between inspiration and blundering along. Then it all comes down to who gets the most press, as opinions are tossed around. When it comes down to the individual, no one else's opinions are worth much.

Based on some of historical evidence he comes across more as a scam artist (much like television evangelicists of today) This was history I was unaware of growing up as a member of the church. I only found out about this history though the internet. Now that I look back on my efforts in this church my belief system has been shaken.

Well, other than the 'shaken' part (which for me lasted about 2 days) I identify with this a lot.

I can choose, by how I tell it, to make JS look like either a horribly wicked, depraved man, or, a beautifully inspired and faithful man. Methinks the middle path is most likely. As an active, happy LDS guy, I lean quite heavily toward the faithful side. Due no doubt, to my personal experiences, both exoteric and esoteric.

HiJolly

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