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Olavarria

Yet Another Egyptian Man's Name, Form The Right Time Period In The Bom.

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Moroni 9:16

16 And again, my son, there are many widows and their daughters who remain in Sherrizah; and that part of the provisions which the Lamanites did not carry away, behold, the army of Zenephi has carried away, and left them to wander whithersoever they can for food; and many old women do faint by the way and die.

Now Senefru was a Pharoah that lived between(2613-2589bc).

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/snefru.htm

Silly Her AMun, Senefru is not Zenephi.

Ah, you forget that there are examples in Phonecian and Aramaic(2 semetic languages) of egyptian names containing "nfr" element in egyptian changing into "npy" in semetic, with medial 'p' sounding as "f" in semetic languages.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

thus, Zenephi is exactly how a semite would transliterate Sennefru.

While Im at it, I might as well remind everyone that Nephi is also an example of a semitization of an egyptian man's name. It means "beutiful"; and when taken into consideration make sthe BoM seem all the more poetic as it was written in egyptian.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nefert.htm

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You might mean Moroni 9:16, but since I've been accused of having never the Book of Mormon I may be wrong

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I do not understand what an Egytian name would have to do with the Book of Mormon. Particulary with a relative late in the story context. Wouldnt it be more appriate to find Mayan names?

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Ole Joe sure was a lucky guesser

Joseph Smith had no access to a history of ancient Egypt?

(Incidentally, how come it's only the antis who get in trouble for calling Joseph Smith "Ole Joe"...?)

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I do not understand what an Egytian name would have to do with the Book of Mormon. Particulary with a relative late in the story context. Wouldnt it be more appriate to find Mayan names?

The BoM was written in a modified egyptian, Lehi describes egyptian as being the language of his fathers, his geneology was written on the brass plates and they were written in egyptian. So if his fathers spoke egyptian and wrote geneologies in egyptian then we should find egyptian names in the text.

As for it being late in the story, I dont see that being anymore wierd than finding Mexicans with arabic names such as Medina or Fatima even though the Moors were driven from Spain more than 500 years ago, or finding jews in Crown Hieghts NY with names like Rachel,Yosef, Shlomo or Moshe even though they havent been in Israel for 2,000 years.

But I answer your questian with a questian, what kind of names did Mayans have between the 600bc and 400ad?

Can you name me 1 mayan king from that time period and the name of the city he ruled? Can you name me one mayan priest from that time period and the temple he served at? Can you name me one mayan general from that time period and the location of one battle he fought in? There is no way of knowing whether or not some mayans from BoM times had these names.

Also, like all ancient histories, the BoM deals almost exclusivly with the upper crust of the society: generals, priests, kings etc. The upper crust of Nephite sciety traced its religion and ancestry to the OW thus retaining OW names is to be expected.

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Joseph Smith had no access to a history of ancient Egypt?

(Incidentally, how come it's only the antis who get in trouble for calling Joseph Smith "Ole Joe"...?)

No, egyptian was only begining to be translated at this time...nothing like a grammer or dictionary was even in existance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figu...lion_jean.shtml

If he did, perhaps you can tell us about it.

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No, egyptian was only begining to be translated at this time...nothing like a grammer or dictionary was even in existance.

If he did, perhaps you can tell us about it.

The later pharaohs, the Ptolemaic Pharaohs, weren't Egyptian at all -- they were Greek. They kept histories -- in Greek. Sometimes they produced dual translations, which is why something like the Rosetta Stone exists, which utilizes two forms of Egyptian hieroglyphs in addition to Greek.

In other words, Her Amun, your tacit argument that the world could not have known of a Pharaoh named "Senefru" until Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs were translated is misleading. There has never been a time when Greek was an unknown language, and Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Polybius, among others, all kept historical records of the people and places around them, including Egypt, and any classical education would have included their works.

In fact, Joseph Smith need not even be classically educated in order to borrow a book on Greek history from the library.

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[...]

(Incidentally, how come it's only the antis who get in trouble for calling Joseph Smith "Ole Joe"...?)

I'm guessing it's for the same reason that only my friends can call me "Dirty Inbred Royal Brit."

Or why Imus can't say the same thing that Snoop does.

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The later pharaohs, the Ptolemaic Pharaohs, weren't Egyptian at all -- they were Greek. They kept histories -- in Greek. Sometimes they produced dual translations, which is why something like the Rosetta Stone exists, which utilizes two forms of Egyptian hieroglyphs in addition to Greek.

In other words, Her Amun, your tacit argument that the world could not have known of a Pharaoh named "Senefru" until Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs were translated is misleading. There has never been a time when Greek was an unknown language, and Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Polybius, among others, all kept historical records of the people and places around them, including Egypt, and any classical education would have included their works.

In fact, Joseph Smith need not even be classically educated in order to borrow a book on Greek history from the library.

Ah yes, "could have, might have, plaubably, maybe, usto could", yet not one fact.

Tell me which book, from which author, from which library Joseph learned about ancient egyptian pharoahs, and the dropping of "r" when taking the egyptian nfr into semetic languages as npy, with medial p being "f".

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God sure is clever. He hides the most substantial proof of the Book of Mormon from the world, but then through the skillful sleuthing of obscure names and arcane semantic derivatives of languages and their changes over centuries of time, allows proofs to be known and shown by Her Amun of the historicity of the BOM.

"God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"? :P<_<

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God sure is clever. He hides the most substantial proof of the Book of Mormon from the world, but then through the skillful sleuthing of obscure names and arcane semantic derivatives of languages and their changes over centuries of time, allows proofs to be known and shown by Her Amun of the historicity of the BOM.

"God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"? :unsure::ph34r:

:P<_<

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Her Amun, I'm afraid I don't see your point.

Can you provide a theoretical chain of usage that gets us from an Egyptian Pharaoh "Senefru" to Joseph Smith dictating "Zenephi" in upperstate New York in 1829? Who preserved the name? Why were they preserving it? What were the alphabets in use that caused it to change?

Also, can you please explain how Senefru's name survived through Noah's flood? Did Noah carry "The BIG Book Of Egyptian Baby Names (3rd Edition)" with him on the Ark?

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thus, Zenephi is exactly how a semite would transliterate Sennefru.

Her Amun--

I don't think so.

The hypothetical Semite (let's assume he's a speaker of Hebrew) has a perfectly good letter for transliterating the 's' sound--viz., Hebrew sin. Why a 'z' in English, rather than an 's'? And what has happened to the 'r' sound, perfectly reproducible in Hebrew with resh? It's just disappeared completely for no apparent reason.

I think this is just wishful thinking. It's certainly far from a "perfect transliteration," as it fails to reproduce two of three semitically-reproducible sound patterns. And, also, Hebrew has a 'u' sound as well. So, let's make it three of four reproducible sound patterns that this "perfect" parallel fails to reproduce.

I'm not buying it. And I don't see any guesswork involved. I do see an enthusiastic attempt to find a transliterational parallel where none is warranted.

Best to you, though.

CKS

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Her Amun--

I don't think so.

The hypothetical Semite (let's assume he's a speaker of Hebrew) has a perfectly good letter for transliterating the 's' sound--viz., Hebrew sin. Why a 'z' in English, rather than an 's'? And what has happened to the 'r' sound, perfectly reproducible in Hebrew with resh? It's just disappeared completely for no apparent reason.

I think this is just wishful thinking. It's certainly far from a "perfect transliteration," as it fails to reproduce two of three semitically-reproducible sound patterns. And, also, Hebrew has a 'u' sound as well. So, let's make it three of four reproducible sound patterns that this "perfect" parallel fails to reproduce.

I'm not buying it. And I don't see any guesswork involved. I do see an enthusiastic attempt to find a transliterational parallel where none is warranted.

I think JS wasn't a lucky guesser. He is lucky to have folks like Her Amun.

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Am I just falling for an obvious trap if I point out that this name is just Nephi with a Ze- stuck on the front?

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Am I just falling for an obvious trap if I point out that this name is just Nephi with a Ze- stuck on the front?

Yeth.

CKS

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Also, can you please explain how Senefru's name survived through Noah's flood? Did Noah carry "The BIG Book Of Egyptian Baby Names (3rd Edition)" with him on the Ark?

I dont know what the flood has to do with this. Who said anything about Noah?

Can you provide a theoretical chain of usage that gets us from an Egyptian Pharaoh "Senefru" to

Joseph Smith dictating "Zenephi" in upperstate New York in 1829?

Ok. Im not saying that a guy was named after the Pharoah Snfr. My nephew's name is Michael, but that doesnt mean he was named after the Moon Walker.

I am saying that Zenephi is an syro-palestinian form of an attested egytian man's name(Sennefru), the pharoah being one man who had the name. Kinda like George Bush and George Albert Smith.

Who preserved the name?

Well, Lehi spoke egyptian, his fathers spoke egyptian and kept their geneology in egyptian so it seems that this name along with a few others(Aha,Hermonts,Pahor,Paanchi,Herihor) were in the brass plates.

The brass plates likely presevered both egyptian(it contained Lehi's geneology in egyptian, the language of his fathers) and hebrew names(it contained the five books of moses and other scriptures), these names were used among their descendants, the descendants are recorded in the BoM, Joseph Smith translated the BoM and that is how they appear on the book handed out by missionaries all over the world.

Why were they preserving it?

Why would they preserve a name like Jacob or Isaiah? tradition or ascetics? Dunno. Maybe it just sounded nice for Sennefru means "to make beutiful".

What were the alphabets in use that caused it to change?

Dunno, Moroni says that the BoM was written in what they called the reformed egyptian, being altered according to the manner of their speech. I dont think the sound shift as anything to do with alphabets(in this case a modified egyptian) or maybe it does. Read the Gee article and you will see that there are examples of egyptian names which contain the nfr element and when those names are recorded in phonecian or aramaic(2 semetic languages) the nfr turns into nfy. Transliteration my boy.

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Am I just falling for an obvious trap if I point out that this name is just Nephi with a Ze- stuck on the front?

Not at all, just a Sennefru("to make beutiful") is just Nefer("good,beutiful") + Sen

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/snefru.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nefert.htm

I think JS wasn't a lucky guesser. He is lucky to have folks like Her Amun.

No Im the lucky one,and so are you, lucky enough to live in this dispensation when the gospel is in it's fullness. Its a great opportunity to get things right while in the flesh and God willing recieve an exaltaion.

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Not at all, just a Sennefru("to make beutiful") is just Nefer("good,beutiful") + Sen

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/snefru.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nefert.htm

No Im the lucky one,and so are you, lucky enough to live in this dispensation when the gospel is in it's fullness. Its a great opportunity to get things right while in the flesh and God willing recieve an exaltaion.

Here's the way I see it:

noparallel-1.gif

Best.

CKS

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Not at all, just a Sennefru("to make beutiful") is just Nefer("good,beutiful") + Sen

According to this logic, any names at all that happen to share purportedly a single (arguably) phonetic sound also happen to be referential of one another.

This is bogus, Her Amun. Sennefru = Nefer?

Is this one of your perfect transliterational parallels? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Best to you, HA.

CKS

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Her Amun, you asked what names did Mayan have. There can be some uncertainty there. On the other hand you suggest a plausible way of knowing something about that. You observe that Mexicans have some names of Arabic connection despite the distance in time an space. I would think that similarly the language and names of later Mayan descendents would be an excellent source of likely earlier Mayan names.

That of course brings up an interesting point. Wouldnt the language of the Lamenites be a clearer marker of their presence than the dna thing. If there were substantial populations speaking Egyptian amounst the Mayans wouldnt that be clearly visible in the Mayan language of later centuries.

Actually I have heard some Mormons suggest that BOM peoples spoke native languages and kept the reformed Egyptian only for special sacred purposes. That would explain the low impact of Egyptian on the Mayan language.

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Here's the way I see it:

noparallel-1.gif

Best.

CKS

You might want to read the Gee article at the OP so as to see how egyptian "nfr" is rendered "npy" (medial "p" pronounced as f) in semetic languages. I am not playing sound alike here, the sound shift in the OP has been demonstrated in actual phonecian and aramaic transliterations of egyptian names containing the element "nefer". The BoM follows a convention attested in the OW, from the same time period as Lehi.

here it is again:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

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According to this logic, any names at all that happen to share purportedly a single (arguably) phonetic sound also happen to be referential of one another.

This is bogus, Her Amun. Sennefru = Nefer?

Is this one of your perfect transliterational parallels? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Best to you, HA.

CKS

The onlything bogus is your strawman and your willingness to accept a fact which has been pointed out by Gee, that being that egyptian "nfr" is rendered "npy" in aramaic and phonecian(2 semetic languages).

This is bogus, Her Amun. Sennefru = Nefer?

Did you even read the OP, or the accompanying article? I guess I cant blame you for not doing so. Everyone knows, Yale PHD in Egyptology or not, a mormon egyptologist cant be trusted, only non-mormon one's can :P

Nefer in egyptian=NPY(pronounced nfy) in when transliterated into semtic languages.

thus Sennefru would be rendered as Zenephi in a semetic languages, when egyptian Nfr turns into Npy in semetic languages.

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That of course brings up an interesting point. Wouldnt the language of the Lamenites be a clearer marker of their presence than the dna thing. If there were substantial populations speaking Egyptian amounst the Mayans wouldnt that be clearly visible in the Mayan language of later centuries.

Who said egyptian was their lingua franca? My name is Pedro that doesnt mean I speak greek. My Last name is Olavarria, that doesnt mean I speak Basque. My dads name is Jose, that doesnt mean he speaks hebrew.

Actually I have heard some Mormons suggest that BOM peoples spoke native languages and kept the reformed Egyptian only for special sacred purposes. That would explain the low impact of Egyptian on the Mayan language.
That is what I believe. A reformed egyptian was to the BoM peoples what greek or hebrew would be to us, a language for religious texts.

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