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David Bokovoy

Internal Evidences For The BofA

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Some people believe aliens or supernatural events create crop circles, and they point to a few unusual features as positive evidence of a non-natural origin, for example: deformation of grains of wheat and the presence of tiny iron molecules. Supposedly, these are the elements that differentiate a "true" crop circle from a man-made hoax.

There was a program on the Discovery Channel where a group of five MIT students travel to a field in Ohio and attempt to replicate a crop circle with these features, to show that all features of a "true" crop circle can be produced by humans in a single night. (see "Crop Circles: Mysteries in the Fields" ) As other investigators have done, they used ropes and boards to flatten the field in a geometric pattern. On top of this, they also built a machine to spray molten iron particles -- they called this a "Flammschmeisser." (The German language has such cool words, don't it?) They built a microwave device to deform the grains of wheat. Finally an independent team examined their work and was impressed that it passed a battery of tests.

"After building what we consider a damn good crop circle with almost perfectly straight lines and an interesting geometry, I find it hard to put any faith in tales of crop circle construction by aliens," Rizzo said. "I think they are a result of free time, boredom and a good sense of humor."

The crop circle experiment flowed from the assumption that crop circles are not made by aliens.

For you guys who like to repeat things, I'll save you the trouble:

The crop circle experiment flowed from the assumption that crop circles are not made by aliens.

crop-skeptic.jpg

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The crop circle experiment flowed from the assumption that crop circles are not made by aliens.

Cute, and apparently irrelevant.

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Cute, and apparently irrelevant.

In so many words, so says our resident "destroyer of words". It must be wonderful to go through life with such amazing powers! :P

To those who believe there is positive evidence and eyewitness testimony that "true" crop circles are made by aliens, it would be important to note the assumptions of skeptical debunkers, would it not? True believers in the alien hypothesis might even bold those assumptions, when crop circle sleuths slip up and admit them on internet bulletin boards. I bet true believers even quote said admissions in their signature-lines from time to time, as a kind of "gotcha!"

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To those who believe there is positive evidence and eyewitness testimony that "true" crop circles are made by aliens....

I hain't been abul to fihnd deez eyeball-witnesses y'all speek ov. Can yuh prahdooz dem? Ore culd dis be whaddya-call-em, ah strah-mahn? Ore cuhld dere jes' bee noh-sech-thang az "troo" crohp sir-kels?

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I hain't been abul to fihnd deez eyeball-witnesses y'all speek ov. Can yuh prahdooz dem? Ore culd dis be whaddya-call-em, ah strah-mahn? Ore cuhld dere jes' bee noh-sech-thang az "troo" crohp sir-kels?

If you use google you will find testimonies about various entities and non-human phenomena as the creators of "true" crop circles.

The relevant point is how believers in crop circles and the Book of Mormon are opposed by a similar type of critic who employs the same naturalistic assumptions. If this is good enough for crop circle debunkers, why not for Dan Vogel?

Do you now see the relevance of my earlier post?

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If you use google you will find testimonies about various entities and non-human phenomena as the creators of "true" crop circles.

The relevant point is how believers in crop circles and the Book of Mormon are opposed by a similar type of critic who employs the same naturalistic assumptions. If this is good enough for crop circle debunkers, why not for Dan Vogel?

Do you now see the relevance of my earlier post?

I did google, and could find no firsthand witnesses of aliens making crop circles, which was the point of my previous post. I found some inferring the existence of aliens, however, but perhaps I didn't search hard enough. In any case, I still fail to see the relevance between crop circles and the existence of the golden plates - maybe you could draw the analogy for us.

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Log:

I did google, and could find no firsthand witnesses of aliens making crop circles, which was the point of my previous post. I found some inferring the existence of aliens, however, but perhaps I didn't search hard enough. In any case, I still fail to see the relevance between crop circles and the existence of the golden plates - maybe you could draw the analogy for us.

Of course, there is no analogy there.

To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to have observed â??aliensâ? creating crop circles. However, at least eight men did claim to see, feel, and lift plates having the appearance of gold, upon which were inscribed ancient-looking characters. And they claimed to have done so under completely natural circumstances â?? with their own eyes and hands.

It sticks in the craw of the critics to know that this powerful historical evidence exists, and that's why they labor so diligently to discredit it in any way they possibly can -- even to the extent of positing blatantly unscholarly, completely unsubstantiated, and laughably absurd theories to explain away what is otherwise a straightforward and unambiguous account.

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I did google, and could find no firsthand witnesses of aliens making crop circles, which was the point of my previous post. I found some inferring the existence of aliens, however, but perhaps I didn't search hard enough. In any case, I still fail to see the relevance between crop circles and the existence of the golden plates - maybe you could draw the analogy for us.

Hello? :P

Get over it, Log. It doesn't matter if I accurately represented what paranormal-believers say about crop circles (I think I did, but it doesn't matter) because my analogy is not between crop circles and the gold plates. As I already said, the analogy is between critics of crop circles and critics of BoM historicity; it is a true analogy because both types of critics rely on naturalistic assumptions.

Now, would you and Will Schryver please acknowledge my point, or show how this is a false analogy?

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TD:

Now, would you and Will Schryver please acknowledge my point, or show how this is a false analogy?

OK. Gotcha. I have no problem with that.

As I've always said, I would never be one to pee on your rug. :P

Edit: In fact, despite the fact that I had to fork over $15,000 to the IRS a few days ago, I'm feeling just fine this afternoon. I might even go to Walmart and buy you a new one!

P.S. Edit: You know, I think that perhaps I shouldn't have just eaten this strawberry my wife gave me. I mean, it was almost the size of a baseball! TD, are you aware of any strawberry patches in SoCal that are nearby a nuclear reactor?

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TD:

OK. Gotcha. I have no problem with that.

As I've always said, I would never be one to pee on your rug. :P

I believe that you wouldn't knowingly pee on my rug, but I wouldn't put it past you to pee on some other guy's rug, and in a case of mistaken identity, the "other guy" could turn out to be me.

In fact, despite the fact that I had to fork over $15,000 to the IRS a few days ago, I'm feeling just fine this afternoon. I might even go to Walmart and buy you a new one!

So you make lots of money and you shop at Walmart. <_<

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I believe that you wouldn't knowingly pee on my rug, but I wouldn't put it past you to pee on some other guy's rug, and in a case of mistaken identity, the "other guy" could turn out to be me.

So you make lots of money and you shop at Walmart. :P

Get your tenses straight!

I made lots of money, and then I gave it to our good friends in Washington to pay for new Humvees to replace those getting blown up by the hundreds in the ancient homeland of Abraham, the father of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews alike.

So, yes, I'll be shopping for your freaking rug at Walmart -- or maybe even the D.I., now that I think of it.

And, as per your other baseless accusation, I would quite simply never pee on someone's rug, even in a case of mistaken identity!

Of course, there was that one time ...

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This is funny. I was just browsing the reader comments for the Crop Circle entry at the Skeptic's Dictionary website. I found this remark about 1/3 of the way down the page, from a self confident-sounding reader named Randall Eades of Danville Kentucky:

You discount the accounts of multiple eyewitnesses as delusions, yet those same eyewitnesses would be credible enough to get you sent to the death chamber in a court of law. Why is their collective eyewitness testimony credible in one circumstance and not in another? Why do they suddenly become delusional when they witness events that don't fit into your paradigm? Is that rational thinking? Or is that just blind faith in a paradigm?

Now what's this about multiple eyewitness accounts of the golden plates?

Randall goes on to say:

It sticks in the craw of the critics to know that powerful physical evidence exists, and that's why they labor so diligently to discredit it in any way they possibly can -- even to the extent of positing blatantly unscholarly, completely unsubstantiated, and laughably absurd theories to explain away what are otherwise straightforward and unambiguous accounts of paranormal activity.

It's uncanny, isn't it? :P

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Get your tenses straight!

I made lots of money, and then I gave it to our good friends in Washington to pay for new Humvees to replace those getting blown up by the hundreds in the ancient homeland of Abraham, the father of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews alike.

So, yes, I'll be shopping for your freaking rug at Walmart -- or maybe even the D.I., now that I think of it.

And, as per your other baseless accusation, I would quite simply never pee on someone's rug, even in a case of mistaken identity!

Of course, there was that one time ...

Oh come on, we all know that the Church really took all your money and are using it to finance the building of the mall, and forcing you to live on a tiny stipend so that you have to moonlight as an apologist at FAIR for extra cash!

Fess up

SlackTime

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