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Mormons And The Catholic Church


siegfried

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A Catholic baptism for infants is roughly likened to an LDS baby blessing.

Does a Catholic baptism for infants have any salvific effect? If so, it is not like an LDS baby blessing in that the blessing is not considered a saving ordinance. Baptism is required for LDS even if they've had a baby blessing, not so for Catholics.

It looks to me more like a mixture of baptism and blessing to me.

The Church described in Nephi is the Catholic Church it seems, but I think all churches that aren't the LDS Church are the "great abominable whore", that includes Baptists, Catholics, and Lutherans, because they work against the LDS Gosp

If you go and read all of the requirements given for the GandA in Nephi, I think it becomes obvious that no church could qualify here.
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This is a question for non-Mormons reading this thread: What is your interpretation or application of ""Baylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" referred to in Revelation 17:3-6?

Satans system; world governments, banking industry,and assorted churches.

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Although there was perhaps nothing doctrinal, there was (is) a strong cultural fear/dislike of all things Catholic by some Mormons I know. Namely, my family.

I grew up being told that the movie "The Song of Bernadette" was "filth".

I had to hide on the floorboards of the car when passing the Catholic church in Provo. (St. Francis)

I was told by my older sister that the CC was the "whore" when I married a Catholic.

There's a lot that goes on without it being doctrinal. It might not be as prevalent as it once was, but it's certainly still there.

in Christ

Steph

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Although there was perhaps nothing doctrinal, there was (is) a strong cultural fear/dislike of all things Catholic by some Mormons I know. Namely, my family.

I grew up being told that the movie "The Song of Bernadette" was "filth".

I had to hide on the floorboards of the car when passing the Catholic church in Provo. (St. Francis)

I was told by my older sister that the CC was the "whore" when I married a Catholic.

There's a lot that goes on without it being doctrinal. It might not be as prevalent as it once was, but it's certainly still there.

in Christ

Steph

I hope that you have now set your family straight on this subject.

The Song of Bernedette is a great film and it was my Catholic mother's favorite. I still remember her having a tear in her eye when watching it. It is quite remarkable the similiarities of Bernedette and JS. Both were considered uneducated and yet both claimed visions. And both gave hope to millions of people. And both were disbelieved when the visions occured.

You can mention such similiarites to your Mormon extended family.

I'm aware that many catholics don''t consider LDS to be Christian. That saddens me, especially considering we kow what it's like. However, has the Pope, or any other Vatican official ever said anything on the matter?

I know RC doesn't recognise your baptisms, but neither do you, ours.

And I know you're not considered "Trinitarian" Christian, but that's a fine distinction I'm only beginning to grasp.

Sometimes I think people get too caught up in doctrinal red tape.

And you my friend can put in a good word for the lds if you ever hear such a thing among your catholic friends. Change begins with a conversation. We all need to have good discussions and conversation to change closed mindedness to open mindedness.

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The Church described in Nephi is the Catholic Church it seems, but I think all churches that aren't the LDS Church are the "great abominable whore", that includes Baptists, Catholics, and Lutherans, because they work against the LDS Gospel.

<_<

Does it do ANY GOOD to give people actual references? More formal treatments of a topic? Does anyone read them?

Stephen Robinson (PhD Biblical Studies, Duke) has demonstrated quite clearly that it is neither the Catholic church nor any other modern denomination in 1 Nephi 13-14. (See here)

When Elder McConkie publicly interpreted 1 Nephi 13-14 as referring to the Catholic church, he was rebuked by the Prophet and President of the LDS Church, David O. McKay. (See the relevant chapter in the new bio of McKay by Gregory Prince.)

Mike Ash traces the idea in the LDS church, which came in via Protestant converts who simply read some of their own beliefs into the Book of Mormon. (See here)

Please, everyone, do your homework. :P

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I had to hide on the floorboards of the car when passing the Catholic church in Provo. (St. Francis)
This is absolutely bizarre behaviour if required by adults unless one is passing through a neighbourhood gunfight. I have not a clue what reasoning an adult would go through to come up with something like this. Certainly nothing in the scriptures or teachings of the Church leads to this type of fear.

If it's more along the lines of kids holding their breath as they pass by graveyards, then I can understand it.

Please, everyone, do your homework.
Indeed.
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My earliest years were in the North Bay, California, where nobody seemed to have any grief if somebody were RC or LDS. Racial tensions were quite high, however, and I was beaten up many times by groups of black kids. My father was involved with 3 race riots involving black on white violence (he himself remained untouched . . . a redheaded golden gloves champ and high school fb coach, nobody sane would mess with him).

After my mother convinced my father to leave his cushy job in CA to come back to Utah I experienced my first example of antimormonism, in the form of RC hispanic kids I attempted to befriend. "F**** Mormon!" was what I was called, though I don't recall ever having brought up religion. This was in a smallish town in northern Utah.

Another incident was a report by my father, who worked in education, who sought the aid of the local padre in trying to help come up with a plan to try to keep RC hispanic kids in school past the 9th or 10th grade -- dropout rates were horrific. He was rebuffed on religious grounds.

It was quite a while later before I experienced RC folks who were ( a ) friendly and ( b ) not antieducation. I was delighted to be so pleasantly surprised. I've since learned that the habitual antimormonism and antieducation of the RC in my home town are not endemic.

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Is it true that the Mormon church teaches that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon? If it is, why?

Also, if it is true, what about the other mainline branches of Christianity that are almost "Catholic lite" such as the Lutheran church and what not.

When 'Mormon Doctrine' was initially released (without approval of the church), Bishop Duane Hunt called President McKay and complained about the book and it's infamous heading under 'Great and Abominable Church'. President McKay assured him that the book was "taken off the shelves" of Deseret Book. It is NOT the doctrine of the LDS. I was raised Catholic and enjoyed the feast I had at weekly mass. I still appreciate the teachings I had at weekly catechism and I would be loathe to join a church that had such little regard for other faiths. In the words of one stake president, "We are here to heal people, not to kill them."

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EnemyAce,

It is NOT the doctrine of the LDS.

Is it the doctrine of the LDS church that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

Bruce R. McConkie wrote in the offical LDS magazine Ensign (Apr. 1977, 3 -- see link below) that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

I would be loathe to join a church that had such little regard for other faiths.

In my opinion the LDS church that you joined does not have much regard for my Catholic faith when it states in an offical LDS magazine that those in my Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell.

The Ensign article below says that offical LDS magazines like Ensign carry messages that are sound in doctrine and are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency.

Dean L. Larsen, â??I Have a Question,â? Ensign, Aug. 1977, 38

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...x=server#LPHit1

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EnemyAce,

Is it the doctrine of the LDS church that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

Bruce R. McConkie wrote in the offical LDS magazine Ensign (Apr. 1977, 3 -- see link below) that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

In my opinion the LDS church that you joined does not have much regard for my Catholic faith when it states in an offical LDS magazine that those in my Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell.

The Ensign article below says that offical LDS magazines like Ensign carry messages that are sound in doctrine and are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency.

Dean L. Larsen, â??I Have a Question,â? Ensign, Aug. 1977, 38

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...x=server#LPHit1

I find this so ironic. Don't we read all the time about how the LDS here get so upset at the Evangelicals and some Protestants that condemn Mormons to hell? Well, as Catholics who baptize little children.....we've been OFFICIALLY condemned to hell by the LDS. :P

Although, I am a bit confused since I'm not used to hearing "hell" from Mormons. I know they teach about 3 levels of heaven and basically we should expect to be in the Terrestrial Kingdom. So why would McConkie say "hell"? Does he mean Outer Darkness?

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I find this so ironic. Don't we read all the time about how the LDS here get so upset at the Evangelicals and some Protestants that condemn Mormons to hell? Well, as Catholics who baptize little children.....we've been OFFICIALLY condemned to hell by the LDS. :P

You protest too much. This is not an official proclamation at all. It is simply the opinion of an individual who, upon his readings of scripture, gave his opinion. I don't share this opinion nor do many of my fellow LDS.

But,what do you make of this from your own Catholic Encyclopedia,

The fate of infants who die without baptism must be briefly considered here. The Catholic teaching is uncompromising on this point, that all who depart this life without baptism, be it of water, or blood, or desire, are perpetually excluded from the vision of God. This teaching is grounded, as we have seen, on Scripture and tradition, and the decrees of the Church. Moreover, that those who die in original sin, without ever having contracted any actual sin, are deprived of the happiness of heaven is stated explicitly in the Confession of Faith of the Eastern Emperor Michael Pal
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EnemyAce,

This is not an official proclamation at all.

Do you consider Ensign a official publication of the LDS church?

It is simply the opinion of an individual who, upon his readings of scripture, gave his opinion.

It appears that the official LDS publication Ensign disagrees with you ... it says the articles in Ensign are sound in doctrine and are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency.

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EnemyAce,

Do you consider Ensign a official publication of the LDS church?

It appears that the official LDS publication Ensign disagrees with you ... it says the articles in Ensign are sound in doctrine and are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency.

Official, yes. Doctrinal, no. Doctrine as to canon is that which has been approved by leadership of the church with the approval of the membership. Doctrine as that which are things that we believe in general are different.

Is it the official doctrine of the Catholic leadership to hide child molestors? Hardly. Was it, nevertheless, practiced by certain members of the leadership. Certainly.

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Since RC infant baptism is without authority it is a legal nullity . . . an act of pious ineffectuality.

It is only if we LDS priesthood holders, who have G-d's authority, were to do it that would be under condemnation.

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EnemyAce,

Is it a doctrine that is sound and has been prepared under the direction of some officially recognized LDS Church agency?

Church agency? Generally speaking the writings are the opinions of the writers and not necessarily the opinions of the church.

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EnemyAce,

Official, yes. Doctrinal, no. Doctrine as to canon is that which has been approved by leadership of the church with the approval of the membership. Doctrine as that which are things that we believe in general are different.

You say it is official ... therefore you would agree that the LDS church officially teaches that those in the Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

Catholic Girl brought up a good point ... what does Bruce R. McConkie mean by "hell"?

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EnemyAce,

Are you saying that the official LDS magazine Ensign is wrong when it says "Church agency"?

I am saying that it doesn't always present canonical doctrine no more than Catholic Digest does.

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Although, I am a bit confused since I'm not used to hearing "hell" from Mormons. I know they teach about 3 levels of heaven and basically we should expect to be in the Terrestrial Kingdom. So why would McConkie say "hell"? Does he mean Outer Darkness?

Hell and paradise are the places where spirits are sent waiting for resurrection. Those who have accepted the gospel in its fulness will go to paradise. Hell is sometimes divided into "spirit prison" and "hell"--in the first, those who have not may go to the part of hell reserved for receiving the truth and hopefully accepting it (and I believe at that point they are then in paradise having accepted the fulness of the gospel). In the second, hell, are those who refuse to repent of their sins and accept the Atonement in all its glory where they will wait until the Second Resurrection and the Day of Judgment. Me, I use "spirit prison" and "hell" interchangeably except when I'm being technical about who goes where in general.

So if by hell you mean spirit prison--and that is the only logical possibility because Outer Darkness is reserved for those who commit a very different sort of sin--this makes perfect sense because all of us will need to be taught the pure form of the gospel and either accept or reject that at some time. So those who misunderstand the gospel by using infant baptism--misunderstand at least by LDS standards--and have not corrected their understanding by the time of their death, will need to learn and accept the truth through repentance as we all will have to endure correction with our imperfect understanding.

Those who treasure their understanding over God's will likely be spending a lot longer in hell than those who accept correction as soon as the truth is presented to them.

PS: Personally I believe anyone who treasures their own standards of judgment over God's will be thrust done to hell to receive correction and that includes any LDS as well. Also important is a pure enough understanding of the Atonement and what it means in order to accept it. Exactly what is required and where God draws the line, if he does, I don't have a clue, but I would assume that anything that stands in the way of total submission and opening oneself up to God and His Spirit will deliver you to hell to learn humility and truth and acceptance or you will truly be left in the bonds of bitterness and suffering because of your refusal to repent of evil and imperfection.

Divisions in the Spirit World

The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught about two divisions or states in the spirit world:

“The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

“And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

“Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection” (Alma 40:12–14).

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762)....

Paradise

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, he visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30).

The Church is organized in the spirit world, with each prophet standing at the head of his own generation (see Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 4:209). Priesthood holders continue their responsibilities in the spirit world. President Wilford Woodruff taught: “The same Priesthood exists on the other side of the veil. … Every Apostle, every Seventy, every Elder, etc., who has died in the faith as soon as he passes to the other side of the veil, enters into the work of the ministry” (in Journal of Discourses, 22:333–34).

Family relationships are also important. President Jedediah M. Grant, a counselor to Brigham Young, saw the spirit world and described to Heber C. Kimball the organization that exists there: “He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities. … He said, ‘When I looked at families, there was a deficiency in some, … for I saw families that would not be permitted to come and dwell together, because they had not honored their calling here’ ” (Heber C. Kimball, in Journal of Discourses, 4:135–36)...

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:25–27). They will then be resurrected.

http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/men...contentLocale=0
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