Who Said This? Work Out Your Salvation

[Beowulf]

While perusing some of Ed Decker's sillier ramblings, I noted his knowing smirk at "those poor Mormons down the street" who are "working out their salvation". Unlike himself and his friends who got their salvation by grace, merely by believing.

This constant harping at the insidiousness of works is irritating...

So I wondered. Where do we Mormons get the phrase (which we use often, I admit) to "work out our salvation?". Is it in the Bible anywhere?

After a (short) search, I found it! And guess who said it? Not James, that bugaboo of all grace-only folks from Martin Luther on down. No, people, it was Paul (hah!).

Phillipians 2:12 (KJV): Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

(NEB) So you too, my friends, must be obedient, as always; even more, now that I am absent, than when I was with you. You must work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

Paul, while acknowledging the grace of God, knows full well that people must also act on their own behalf to reach that state where the grace of God can operate.

In other words, he sounds just like a Mormon...

Beowulf

[urroner]

But Beo, you just don't understand. You have taken the verse completely out of context. You Mormon apologists do it all the time. Grace is free, no works involved. You sound way too Japanese with all this silly "work" stuff.

[Magyar]

In actuality, every so-called peculiar LDS doctrine -- whether still held to or "set aside," whether as beautiful as celestial marriage or as misunderstood as Adam-God or blood atonement, has Biblical support -- or playing devil's advocate, Biblical derivation.

Some of Brigham Young's most vilified sermons make perfect sense when understood in a Biblical sense. It's as if Shakespearean actors are being criticized for reciting lines that the Bard actually wrote.

We endure deep criticism from supposedly devout folks who apparently don't open their Bibles very often.

[cdowis]

Paul was saying that if you *do* work out your own salvation, do so with fear and trembling. But the yoke of Christ is easy. He did it for us.

(An EV interpretation of this scripture)

[rhinomelon]

Paul was saying that if you *do* work out your own salvation, do so with fear and trembling. But the yoke of Christ is easy. He did it for us.

Not really the typical evangelical interpretation. Also notice the second part of the passage in question: "For it is God who works in you to will and to work according to His good purpose." (from memory, sorry if I mucked it up a bit). All Christians work out their own salvation, because it is God working in them through the Holy Spirit. This fits perfectly with Paul's other explanations of the working of God in the believer, like in Romans 5-8.

Also note that Paul is not saying "work for your salvation", as if it is something not yet obtained. Rather, Paul is telling the Philippian believers to "work out" or "put into action" what they have already obtained and currently possess. He calls them "united with Christ" and "in fellowship with the Holy Spirit" already.

Just my thoughts. Take care, everyone

[USU78]

Paul was saying that if you *do* work out your own salvation, do so with fear and trembling. But the yoke of Christ is easy. He did it for us.

Not really the typical evangelical interpretation. Also notice the second part of the passage in question: "For it is God who works in you to will and to work according to His good purpose." (from memory, sorry if I mucked it up a bit). All Christians work out their own salvation, because it is God working in them through the Holy Spirit. This fits perfectly with Paul's other explanations of the working of God in the believer, like in Romans 5-8.

Also note that Paul is not saying "work for your salvation", as if it is something not yet obtained. Rather, Paul is telling the Philippian believers to "work out" or "put into action" what they have already obtained and currently possess. He calls them "united with Christ" and "in fellowship with the Holy Spirit" already.

Just my thoughts. Take care, everyone

rhino, if you're going to continue to fail to make reference to our being non-Christian cultists, I'm afraid I'm going to have to cancel my perscription.

[cdowis]

>Paul is telling the Philippian believers to "work out" or "put into action" what they have already obtained

Would be interested in what the greek verb says. Have my greek stuff at home, but perhaps someone else can look it up.

[Gervin]

Strong's Number: 2716

Original Word Word Origin

katergavzomai from (2596) and (2038)

Transliterated Word: Katergazomai

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech:

kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee (Verb)

Definition

to perform, accomplish, achieve

to work out i.e. to do that from which something results

of things: bring about, result in

to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing

Actually this is for the word "out" as in "work out." The word "work" is tied to "out" and as far as I can tell it's the only usage in the NT. "Work" has a few definitions:

dunamis - mighty work

energeo - work

ergazomai - work

ergasia - work

ergon - work

katergazomai - work

katergazomai - work out

megaleios - wonderful work

molis - have much work

poieo - work

pragma - work

praxis - work

sunergeo - work with

sunergeo - work together

[BCSpace]

Philippians 2:12 provides yet another accurate decription of LDS doctrine. Jives well with "after all we can do".

Additionally, in Philippians 3:12-14, we see Paul's recognition that he is not yet saved.

[rhinomelon]

Would be interested in what the greek verb says. Have my greek stuff at home, but perhaps someone else can look it up.

Try this link. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...89001-6634.html

The word looks like it can be read either way, either performing something, or achieving something. Context, as in all cases, is important here.

rhino, if you're going to continue to fail to make reference to our being non-Christian cultists, I'm afraid I'm going to have to cancel my perscription.

You should know that you should obtain a doctor's permission before discontinuing any prescribed medication...

Seriously though, I don't know that I've ever referred to the LDS Church as a "cult". Crappy word, in my opinion.

Take care, everyone

[drfatguy]

Rhino,

I think we are closer than ever on this one. If we read King Benjamin's Farewell Address to his people, he states about the same thing. We need to do the works of God, what is in us. We are carnel, sensual, and devilish until we submit our will to the Father's. I think this is the confusion, we as LDS state works are important, the EV/BAC's state only Grace until we look at the scriptures.

Dr Fatguy

[rhinomelon]

I think this is the confusion, we as LDS state works are important, the EV/BAC's state only Grace until we look at the scriptures.

I think the confusion does result from misconceptions (for instance, all mainstream Christians encourage the doing of good works), but I do believe a real area of difference lies in the order. LDS teach that salvation comes after certain works, while mainstream Christianity teaches that salvation is given apart from works, but then leads to all sorts of good works as a result. A small difference in print, but a huge difference in terms of practice and doctrine.

Take care, everyone

[Beowulf]

Rhino notes that Paul also said that God is working through them, in verse 13. This would appear to support the EV position that salvation comes and then people do good works BECAUSE they are saved.

The LDS interpretation is actually quite similar, but as Rhino noted, not identical. God encourages people to do the right thing, certainly, but the people must still CHOOSE to do so. I think that this is why Paul uses "work out" to describe what is happening.

(There is, in other words, still a chance for backsliding...)

Note: My NEB footnotes "fear and trembling" to mean "reverence and awe" for God, not "terror".

I have a Greek NT here with me, but I did not reference it in my above post. The term used definitely means "work" however.

Beowulf

[BCSpace]

This would appear to support the EV position that salvation comes and then people do good works BECAUSE they are saved

Impossible first because 'salvation first' is not mentioned (you have to work it out first) and second because of the next chapter. If Paul is not saved, then they are not saved either.

'Born again first' is more accurate. But like grace, EVs confuse being born again with salvation.

[Beowulf]

Urroner jibes:

But Beo, you just don't understand. You have taken the verse completely out of context. You Mormon apologists do it all the time. Grace is free, no works involved. You sound way too Japanese with all this silly "work" stuff.

Don't even get me started about the Japanese!!

They are a lovely hard-working race, but...

Well, a story: When I was living in Japan, I used to go down to the Tokyo Temple where the Temple President (a retired BYU professor who I had been close to at school) would bounce complaints off me about the local members. He said one day that "Japanese LDS work too hard, so I keep telling them to relax".

The following Sunday, a good member of my local ward (a member of many years standing actually) spoke in Sacrament Mtg and talked about the Temple President exhorting members to relax. Great! I thought... No dice... In the next sentence, the good brother said that the Temple President is at such a spiritually high level that he would have to work really hard to get to that higher spiritual plane before he could relax...

I reported this back to the Temple President, who sighed and said he needed to go back and give yet another sermon...

Beowulf

[rhinomelon]

Impossible first because 'salvation first' is not mentioned (you have to work it out first) and second because of the next chapter. If Paul is not saved, then they are not saved either.

Where does Paul say that he was not saved? I see references to Paul not having yet attained to the resurrection of the dead, nor has he been made perfect, but where do you get salvation from the passage in question?

Paul states in Philippians 2 that the believers are united with Christ, and have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. How is that not salvation, especially union with Christ? Granted, salvation is spoken of in the future tense in some passages, but also in the past and present tenses in others.

I would also like to here your thoughts on Philippians 3:16: "Only let us live up to what we have already attained. "

What, in your view, have Paul and the other believers already attained?

(There is, in other words, still a chance for backsliding...)

Agreed.

Take care, everyone

[Beowulf]

Agreed?

Certainly you are close to the LDS view, Rhino!

Paul talking about what we have already attained is, to LDS ears, a reference to baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit, the gift of which is available to all members of the Church.

If this is equivalent to the EV idea of salvation, then so be it...

But baptism, as the October issue of the Ensign points out (see I have already read much of it ), is the gateway opening up the road to Heaven. It is not the destination. It is along that road that Paul wants us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

Beowulf

[T-Shirt]

Would be interested in what the greek verb says. Have my greek stuff at home, but perhaps someone else can look it up.

Try this link. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...89001-6634.html

The word looks like it can be read either way, either performing something, or achieving something. Context, as in all cases, is important here.

The word seems to mean, "bring about" in the context of doing something that will "bring about" a certain result. Nearly every other time the word is used in the New Testament, this seems to be the case. Other words that work are, "finish", "complete" or "accomplish".

So this verse seems to be saying, Obey and bring about your salvation, or complete your salvation.

The next verse uses a different word, which is translated as "worketh". This word means, "to be active" In other words, these verses seem to be saying that as we are obedient, God is active in us to help us desire and be active in His purpose.

All of this, of course, is very LDS

T-Shirt

[rhinomelon]

Agreed?

Certainly you are close to the LDS view, Rhino!

Not really, as I wouldn't equate "backsliding" with "losing one's salvation". I don't see salvation as something one can jump into and out of from moment to moment. Of course, you may not think this either. It's just the impression I get from some LDS.

So this verse seems to be saying, Obey and bring about your salvation, or complete your salvation.

"Complete your salvation" would be compatible with many mainstream Christians, but not all. Of course, if one couples that with the second half of the verse, that it is God who is working in you, then it is fine. The works that contribute to our cooperating with God in salvation are themselves works of God in us, and again we can't claim credit. This is basically Augustine's view in a nutshell, from what I can gather.

One other question. Why, if Paul is basically proto-LDS, is he speaking of "somehow attaining to the resurrection of the dead"? In LDS thinking, resurrection is the easy part, requiring absolutely no effort on our part at all.

Take care, everyone

[T-Shirt]

So this verse seems to be saying, Obey and bring about your salvation, or complete your salvation.

"Complete your salvation" would be compatible with many mainstream Christians, but not all.

It is compatible with LDS as well. However, I believe a better translation is "bring about".

Of course, if one couples that with the second half of the verse, that it is God who is working in you, then it is fine. The works that contribute to our cooperating with God in salvation are themselves works of God in us, and again we can't claim credit. This is basically Augustine's view in a nutshell, from what I can gather.

I think this verse is commonly misunderstood. I don't think it means that when we do good things, it is actually God doing it. The verse implies that God is "active" in us, to help us desire and do His will. In other words, He encourages us, inspires us, strengthens us, but it is still we who choose to be obedient.

It would be like saying, because my heart is active in me, I can mow the lawn. My heart gives me the power, but it does not mow the lawn, I do.

One other question. Why, if Paul is basically proto-LDS, is he speaking of "somehow attaining to the resurrection of the dead"? In LDS thinking, resurrection is the easy part, requiring absolutely no effort on our part at all.

The Greek word translated as, "attain" means "to arrive". In other words, Paul is speaking of the resurrection, which he had not yet "arrived" at, obviously, because he was still living. Attain, according to the Greek, does not mean, "attain", as in something you work for, but as in something you receive when you arrive. Paul, as all of us cannot attain or arrive at the resurrection, at least, until we die.

T-Shirt

[BCSpace]

Impossible first because 'salvation first' is not mentioned (you have to work it out first) and second because of the next chapter. If Paul is not saved, then they are not saved either.

Where does Paul say that he was not saved? I see references to Paul not having yet attained to the resurrection of the dead, nor has he been made perfect, but where do you get salvation from the passage in question?

According to John 5:28-29, neither Paul nor anyone else has to attain the resurrection. It is automatic for all so this 'attainment' has nothing to do with the resurrection. It's simply the marker wherein we see to what we have attained, a higher or a lesser degree of salvation (1 Corinthians 15:40-42, etc.)

Notice also (vs 9 and 10) that he admits to not knowing Christ or being in him yet. He is most definitely not saved (especially seeing as how is he not with God in heaven).

Paul states in Philippians 2 that the believers are united with Christ, and have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. How is that not salvation, especially union with Christ?

[[taps the sign]]

that I may win Christ, And be found in him,

So you are claiming that even after one is 'saved', there is still work to be done? Perfection? LOL!

Granted, salvation is spoken of in the future tense in some passages,

Because no mortal has met all the requirements for salvation.

but also in the past and present tenses in others.

Because the operation that will accomplish salvation (Grace) for all those who meet the requirements has been done.

I would also like to here your thoughts on Philippians 3:16: "Only let us live up to what we have already attained. "

They have been born again and are on the path to salvation instead of going along with the world.

So likewise, it would be interesting to see your thoughts on what the 'prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus' is that they are pressing towards (not yet attained).

[BCSpace]

The Greek word translated as, "attain" means "to arrive". In other words, Paul is speaking of the resurrection, which he had not yet "arrived" at, obviously, because he was still living. Attain, according to the Greek, does not mean, "attain", as in something you work for,

Actually, it does, especially in the Philippians 3 sense. It is something we choose to receive [Edit: actually, it's part of the 'to take' series, NOT part of 'to receive'] or that we have selected. Specifically for verse 12 it is "to get possesion of, to attain".

We certainly do select the type of resurrection; life or damnation and to what degree, but as for the resurrection itself, we have no choice, we will be resurrected no matter what.

[Magyar]

Good discussion!

Quick bump!

And no, I'm not just trying to up my numbers so that I can stop dividing water from land because my hands are all pruney.

[Theophilus]

I think this is the confusion, we as LDS state works are important, the EV/BAC's state only Grace until we look at the scriptures.

Dr Fatguy

EV's certainly agree that "works are important".

(It is only the LDS straw-man that asserts the EV position as "works are meaningless", or "works are unimportant". So rather than describing our actual belief, you are simply repeating the LDS caricature of our belief.

We believe works certainly are important.

They are the "fruits" of our salvation.

We simply don't believe that our works, important as they are, "contribute to our salvation".

Theophilus

[urroner]

EV's certainly agree that "works are important".

(It is only the LDS straw-man that asserts the EV position as "works are meaningless", or "works are unimportant". So rather than describing our actual belief, you are simply repeating the LDS caricature of our belief.

We believe works certainly are important.

They are the "fruits" of our salvation.

We simply don't believe that our works, important as they are, "contribute to our salvation".

Theophilus

I know EVs who do say that works contribute to their salvation. What does that mean?