31 replies to this topic

[Scott Lloyd]

cinepro, on Jul 26 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

I think we can all agree that, barring Translation, Joseph would have died eventually, of some cause natural or inflicted.  

What I am trying to understand is if people think the events around Joseph's death as we currently know them would have been drastically different without polygamy, meaning would there still have been an Expositor-destruction of press- Carthage Jail Murder chain of events?

Why would it have to involve destruction of a press? Could there not have been some other episode, not involving polygmy, in which they found an excuse to murder him? Had it not been for Alexander Doniphan, General Lucas might well have done it in Missouri.

[Magyar]

Early America was full of all kinds of weird sexual experiments, from free love to celibacy. Yet I don't know of too many prominent people who were killed over any of them.

I fully agree that the bitter tongues of apostates, coupled with the thorn of Mormon abolitionism thrust into the side of slavery, helped to seal Joseph's fate.

You think about it. What did people kill each other over to the greatest extent in the US of the 19th century? Political machinations, slavery and wounded pride.

[Who Knows]

Didn't a number of early prominent apostates leave because of JS's secret practice of polygamy?  And didn't some of these same people have involvement with the anti-mormon feelings around at the time - leading to publishing 'anti-mormonism' in the expositor?

[katherine the great]

I think polygamy had it's greatest impact on the size of Utah.  Utah would have become a state decades sooner, and probably would have included parts of Nevada, Idaho and Arizona.  (I don't think Brigham Young would have gotten Southern California though either way...)

[Magyar]

katherine the great, on Jul 26 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

I think polygamy had it's greatest impact on the size of Utah.  Utah would have become a state decades sooner, and probably would have included parts of Nevada, Idaho and Arizona.  (I don't think Brigham Young would have gotten Southern California though either way...)

I think you may be right about that. But then again, without the bulging families of polygamous Utah to bolster its early population, perhaps it might have stayed a sparsely settled territory, ala Arizona, for a few more decades.

Edited by Magyar, 26 July 2006 - 12:16 PM.

[katherine the great]

Magyar, on Jul 26 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

katherine the great, on Jul 26 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

I think polygamy had it's greatest impact on the size of Utah.�?�  Utah would have become a state decades sooner, and probably would have included parts of Nevada, Idaho and Arizona.�?�  (I don't think Brigham Young would have gotten Southern California though either way...)

I think you may be right about that. But then again, without the bulging families of polygamous Utah to bolster its early population, perhaps it might have stayed a sparsely settled territory, ala Arizona, for a few more decades.

I'll resist the temptation to argue that point on this thread!  

[USU78]

Yes.

It has been argued that, had the Saints' petition for redress not taunted Missouri's Governor Boggs for allowing JSJr and party to escape jail rather than face trial, that the Missourians might have been satisfied with driving the Mormons out.  They were all pretty much gone when the "escape" was contrived anyway.

It was the Saints' inability to counter the political machinations of Missouri officers in Illinois who were trying to rearrest JSJr, Hyrum, et al. that turned public opinion against the Mormons.  That turning predated the Expositor incident, but was certainly aggravated by it.

Polygyny, in my view, was merely a pretext from Illinois' perspective:  it was the issue from the Laws' perspective.

[UteFan]

I think I'm in agreement with The Dude.  

I don't believe Joseph was killed because he practiced polygamy.  But I believe this was the catalyst (led to destruction of the press) that frenzied the mob and directly led to his death.

Without the destruction of the mob, who knows, he had been living with angry mobs for many years. Maybe he could have lived many more.  I believe the saints still would have been kicked out of Illinois but maybe JS survives.

[Dale]

My understanding is that Joseph smith, and the city council were within the law for shutting down the press. But that they broke the law by physically destroying it also. Joseph smith was innocent under U.S. law until conviced. He had the right not to face those serious charges in court not in some angry get even tell all publication.

It was physically destroying the press not polygamy that got him killed. Polygamy was the issue they used as an issue to build some of the publication around.

[Scott Lloyd]

UteFan, on Jul 26 2006, 12:41 PM, said:

I think I'm in agreement with The Dude.�?� 

I don't believe Joseph was killed because he practiced polygamy.�?�  But I believe this was the catalyst (led to destruction of the press) that frenzied the mob and directly led to his death.

Without the destruction of the mob, who knows, he had been living with angry mobs for many years. Maybe he could have lived many more.�?�  I believe the saints still would have been kicked out of Illinois but maybe JS survives.

It seems to me that the impression, from the mob point of view, was that if you cut off the head, the body dies. I don't think the enemies expected the Church to survive the death of Joseph Smith. The focus was to find any means to isolate and eliminate Joseph. Any workable pretext would have suited them. If polygamy and the Expositor incident hadn't worked, they would have found something else.

Edited by Scott Lloyd, 26 July 2006 - 02:31 PM.

[Pokatator]

katherine the great, on Jul 26 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

I think polygamy had it's greatest impact on the size of Utah.  Utah would have become a state decades sooner, and probably would have included parts of Nevada, Idaho and Arizona.  (I don't think Brigham Young would have gotten Southern California though either way...)

Thanks be to God, from us Idahoans.

[Pokatator]

After reading this thread, I am confused to a much higher level.

I voted NO, because I feel that the catalyst idea with the printing press was the incident that got him killed at that time.  I also feel that without that catalyst incident he would still have been killed for a slew of other reasons, if he didn't flee first.

So maybe, my vote should have been YES???

Anyway on the plus side, I have learned a few things on this thread.