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Doctor Steuss

Trinity, Trinity, Trinity.

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Southern Gentleman,

Their are two "onenesses" described in the Bible:

As you have indicated John 17 indicates a "oneness". John 17:21-23 Reveals That Men Can Enter Into The Unity Of The Trinity.

The other oneness described in the Bible is that the Son and the Father are one in being (John 10:30)

Since the "The Bible sometimes must be understood in a non-literal fashion" who was manifest in the flesh?

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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Johnny, John 10:30 says nothing of a "oneness of being", that is a later interpolation voted in at the council of Nicea. The Bible spells out only one "oneness" and that is in John17:20-21. It is okay if you want to believe that Johnny, but the Bible does not spell it out this way.

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Southern Gentleman,

John 10:30 says nothing of a "oneness of being", that is a later interpolation voted in at the council of Nicea.

In 216 AD Tertullian interpreted JOhn 10:30 as one essence.

I agree with the oness as you have described in John17:20-21.

But again you are ignoring the other scriptures that describe another type of oness.

Again I ask who was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16)?

The Bible says that life eternal is know the only true God, and Jesus Christ ... do you know the God that was manifest ... if so please tell us who was manifest?

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Southern Gentleman,
John 10:30 says nothing of a "oneness of being", that is a later interpolation voted in at the council of Nicea.

In 216 AD Tertullian interpreted JOhn 10:30 as one essence.

I agree with the oness as you have described in John17:20-21.

But again you are ignoring the other scriptures that describe another type of oness.

Again I ask who was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16)?

The Bible says that life eternal is know the only true God, and Jesus Christ ... do you know the God that was manifest ... if so please tell us who was manifest?

Surely there can be many types of oneness -- but how can it make sense for Jesus to pray that His followers would be one in mind as He and the Father were one in body?

I've seen this faulty reasoning pop up before, dear Johnny, when you insisted that God is a spirit and therefore we must leave our bodies in order to worship him in spirit and in truth.

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In 216 AD Tertullian interpreted JOhn 10:30 as one essence.

So what, this does not change the fact that there is only one"oneness" spelled out in the Bible. Again please provide chapter and verse that spell it out as "one Being". IMO Tertullian was wrong.

I agree with the oness as you have described in John17:20-21.

But again you are ignoring the other scriptures that describe another type of ones

Again please provide the scripture which says that Jesus and the Father are of "one substance or essence"; as of right now, you have not. I am waiting. :P

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Magyar,

Surely there can be many types of oneness -- but how can it make sense for Jesus to pray that His followers would be one in mind as He and the Father were one in body?

He is not praying that his followers be "one in body", his prayer in John 17 is about oness of mind.

I've seen this faulty reasoning pop up before

Use your reasoning to tell us who was the God that was manifest (1Tim 3:16) ...

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b]Southern Gentleman,

So what, this does not change the fact that there is only one"oneness" spelled out in the Bible.

The fact is that their are many that believe that is more than one "oneness" that is spelled out in the Bible.

Again please provide chapter and verse that spell it out as "one Being". IMO Tertullian was wrong.

I provided 1Tim 3:16 and still waiting for your replay of who was manifest in the flesh?

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Magyar,
Surely there can be many types of oneness -- but how can it make sense for Jesus to pray that His followers would be one in mind as He and the Father were one in body?

He is not praying that his followers be "one in body", his prayer in John 17 is about oness of mind.

I've seen this faulty reasoning pop up before

Use your reasoning to tell us who was the God that was manifest (1Tim 3:16) ...

If John 17 is all about oneness of mind, then you can't use it to show that Jesus and the Father are one in body, now can you?

Can't have your cake and eat it, too, friend.

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Magyar,

I am not using John 17 to reveal that the Father are one in being I am using John 10:30 and 1Tim 3:16.

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Magyar,

I am not using John 17 to reveal that the Father are one in being I am using John 10:30 and 1Tim 3:16.

Oh, now I get it. You are picking and choosing definitions in various chapters in order to suit your theology. Whatever.

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I provided 1Tim 3:16 and still waiting for your replay of who was manifest in the flesh

I must be blind, because I'm not seeing the phrase " of one substance" in 1Timothy 3:16. Should I be reading between the lines for a hidden text Johnny ? :P<_< . To answer your question, it was God who was manifest in the flesh, but this is in harmony with LDS theology because Jesus is also God metaphorically. Mosiah 15: 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. Again John17:20-21 spell out "how" Jesus is "one' with the Father.

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Magyar,

You are picking and choosing definitions in various chapters in order to suit your theology.

My theology fits the early apostolic church ... does your theology?

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Magyar,
You are picking and choosing definitions in various chapters in order to suit your theology.

My theology fits the early apostolic church ... does your theology?

Yep, sure does, without a whole lot of Greek philosophy blended in.

Homousis and prime movers indeed.

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Southern Gentleman,

I must be blind, because I'm not seeing the phrase " of one substance" in 1Timothy 3:16.

You say you "must be blind" ... Do you know what a mystery is?

1Tim.2

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

To answer your question, it was God who was manifest in the flesh, but this is in harmony with LDS theology because Jesus is also God metaphorically

Your answer is not consistent with 1Timothy 2:5 which says their is "one God" and you answers is not consistent with Mosiah 15 which says God himself. Who is God himself?

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim. 3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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You say you "must be blind" ... Do you know what a mystery is?

It is a mystery to me that you cannot provide even one Biblical reference that contains the phrase " of one substance". However, Jesus Himself explains the "mystery to us",(John17:20-21) and something that is understood is no longer a mystery. But is not the Trinity said to be incomprehensible ?

Your answer is not consistent with 1Timothy 2:5 which says their is "one God" and you answers is not consistent with Mosiah 15 which says God himself. Who is God himself?

Actually it is Johnny, because John17:20-21 explains how Jesus and the Father are one. Well since you cannot provide a Biblical reference that includes the phrase " of one substance" ( you haven't BTW ) then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. cool.gif I will not allow myself to be drawn into using schoolyard antics; because that is just so not mature.

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Southern Gentleman,

It is a mystery to me that you cannot provide even one Biblical reference that contains the phrase " of one substance". However, Jesus Himself explains the "mystery to us",(John17:20-21) and something that is understood is no longer a mystery. But is not the Trinity said to be incomprehensible ?

John 17:20-21 is not explaining the mystery of 1Tim 3:16. ... John 17 does not say anything about God's manifestation in the flesh

A mystery is revealed by divine revelation.

The doctrine of the Trinity Is Truth Contained In Divine Revelation.

The Father's Self-Communication Remains Present And Active In The Church.

The Trinity is not "incomprehensible", it is a mystery.

Mysteries can never be known unless they are revealed by God. A mystery is inaccessible to reason alone

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John 17:20-21 is not explaining the mystery of 1Tim 3:16. ... John 17 does not say anything about God's manifestation in the flesh

Actually, IMHO it is Johnny, because Jesus Explains "how" the Father is "in" Jesus, and thus "how" God is "manifest" "in" the person of Jesus Christ.

A mystery is revealed by divine revelation

I agree with you here Johnny. That is why IMO the Lord called Joseph Smith to be His latter-day prophet. (Amos 3:7) Does the Catholic church have prophets or Apostles ? I was under the impression that they did not. Am I wrong ? Can you provide an official statement where the Catholic Church says that it has prophets and continuing revelation through those prophets and or Apostles.

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Southern Gentleman,

Actually, IMHO it is Johnny, because Jesus Explains "how" the Father is "in" Jesus, and thus "how" God is "manifest" "in" the person of Jesus Christ.

You say the Father can be "in" a man ... Joseph Smith said the Father could not be "in" a man ... who is correct?

You answer is just not consistent with Scriputre ... 1JOhn 1 reveals:

1John 1

[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Does the Catholic church have prophets or Apostles ? I was under the impression that they did not. Am I wrong ? Can you provide an official statement where the Catholic Church says that it has prophets and continuing revelation through those prophets and or Apostles.

Since this is getting off-topic, I would suggest another thread to discuss it further.

Below are some official Catholic Church teachings ...

The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit remains present and active in the Church: God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Church. (CCC79). The Trinity is a dogma (CCC251). A dogma is truth contained in divine revelation proposed by the Church's living Magisterium which holds authority from Christ (CCC88). Divine assistance is given to the successors of the apostles when they propose a teaching that leads to better understanding (CCC892). God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son [Heb 1:1-2]. (CCC65). No new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation is complete but it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries (CCC66). The Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God (CCC2036).

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edited because johnny fixed who he was communicating with above :P

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You say the Father can be "in" a man ... Joseph Smith said the Father could not be "in" a man ... who is correct?

Both are correct Johnny, Since the only way that the Father can be in Jesus and in us is in a symbolic,spiritual way. (John 17:20-21) But according to Joseph the Father cannot "literally" be in us. Joseph also quoted and understood John 17:20-21 and correctly understood that the "Oneness" of God and Christ as well as we "in" Them is not to be taken literally. BTW taking quotes of LDS prophets out of context and attempting to create a caricature of what LDS believe is not going to impress any knowledgable latter-day saint around here Johnny.

You answer is just not consistent with Scriputre ... 1JOhn 1 reveals:

I believe it is Johnny, and I have explained to you why I beleive that.

Since this is getting off-topic, I would suggest another thread to discuss it further.

Below are some official Catholic Church teachings ...

The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit remains present and active in the Church: God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Church. (CCC79). The Trinity is a dogma (CCC251). A dogma is truth contained in divine revelation proposed by the Church's living Magisterium which holds authority from Christ (CCC88). Divine assistance is given to the successors of the apostles when they propose a teaching that leads to better understanding (CCC892). God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son [Heb 1:1-2]. (CCC65). No new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation is complete but it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries (CCC66). The Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God (CCC2036).

My question to you was in response to what you claimed about continuing revelation in the Catholic church, so it was you who was getting off topic. But anyway, the above explanation INMHO does not seem to be what the Lord had in mind according to Amos 3:7 and Ephesians 4:11-14; but that's just me. BTW thank you for providing that information to nme just the same. :P

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Southern Gentleman,

Joseph also quoted and understood John 17:20-21 and correctly understood that the "Oneness" of God and Christ

I don't have not a problem with the LDS understanding of John 17:20-21, the Catholic Church teaches this interpretation and the early Christian creeds mentions this as one of the "oneness" revealed in scripture.

Below are the Catholic Church teachings:

Men are called to become one with Christ (CCC521). John 17:21-23 reveals that men can enter into the unity of the Blessed Trinity. Men are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity [Jn 14:23] (CCC260).

Below are the words in the Athanasian Creed/Trinitarian Creed :

- He is one by the unity of his person. (e.g John 17)

- He is one by God's taking humanity to himself. (e.g. 1Tim 3:16)

But anyway, the above explanation INMHO does not seem to be what the Lord had in mind according to Amos 3:7 and Ephesians 4:11-14; but that's just me.

The Catholic Church teachings fit nicely with Eph 4:11-14 because Eph 4:11-14 is talking about spiritual gifts and it fits nicely with the prophets that are revealed in the New Testament. If you want to talk more on this topic open another thread.

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I don't have not a problem with the LDS understanding of John 17:20-21, the Catholic Church teaches this interpretation and the early Christian creeds mentions this as one of the "oneness" revealed in scripture.

Good Johnny, I am glad that you can understand how LDS understand the "oneness of God". I do understand that you believe that there can be other ways that God is said to be "one"; and I respect that, and I appreciate you and others for sharing that with me. However, for me personally I do not see (Biblically) but one way that God can be one as explained in John 17:20-21. But I know that the Bible can been interpreted differently by others. Thanks for the discussion. :P

The Catholic Church teachings fit nicely with Eph 4:11-14 because Eph 4:11-14 is talking about spiritual gifts and it fits nicely with the prophets that are revealed in the New Testament. If you want to talk more on this topic open another thread.

Not at the present time, but it is refreshing to hear another view besides the evangelical one, which is mostly what I am used to. I'm glad we have some Catholics here because it makes it more interesting to hear your side of things too.

God is Great,

Southern Gentleman

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Southern Gentleman,

Thank you for the discussion. I enjoyed sharing ideas with you ...

johnny

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I would like to offer my sincere gratitude to everyone who has participated in this thread. Although there were a few points where it started to move into being a debate rather than a dialogue, it appears that everyone did a substantial job of keeping with my original request. I

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