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Kevin Graham

Book of Abraham

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It's plausible they knew of Champollion, didn't want to wait for his work, then realized after trying to plow through it that it just might be better to wait.

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Paul O:

You haven't learned the value of this wonderful work and how important it was to the prophet and his companions.

No, apparently I have not. I assume that your statement implies that you have. If so, perhaps you could elaborate for our benefit.

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It's plausible they knew of Champollion, didn't want to wait for his work, then realized after trying to plow through it that it just might be better to wait.  It's a perfect explanation as to why that work was so obviously cut short.

You know, Provis, that's a good point.

I find it incredibly coincidental that Champollion died in 1832 - and then his Grammaire

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I think you got your posters mixed up. Last I knew, PacMan and I were not interchangeable. For one thing, I'm certain he could not be anywhere near as handsome as I am. :P

lol that I did! I'll go back and edit.

FWIW, I'm sure you're equally handsome.

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PacMan:
TO EVERYONE: Why would JS & Assoc. have spent their time on the Alphabet and Grammar of Egyptian, if they didn't think it was phonetic?

I think the PacMan makes a valid point here. Although, as I understand it, the EAG didn't exactly give "sounds" as the definition for signs, which would be expected for a "phonetic" language. Still, the EAG provides only a fraction of English text per character as compared to the ratio between symbol/text in the "translation" manuscripts. Paul, how do you respond to this?

First, the Egyptian language does employ an alphabet

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Paul O:
You haven't learned the value of this wonderful work and how important it was to the prophet and his companions.

No, apparently I have not. I assume that your statement implies that you have. If so, perhaps you could elaborate for our benefit.

As much as I would like to I simply don't have the time to teach you lessons. This is a long and drawn out subject and you will have to spend many hours gazing into these things in order to have your mind opened. It will take time.

Now, I suggest you read the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 several times, out loud as well as in your mind. Let the words flow into your soul - hunger for the words to fill your mind with knowledge. Seek the best gifts and have faith you will get them.

Get yourself a complete copy of these documents. Read, ponder, and pray about them. Blow off what LDS critics have said about the KEP. If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God and get answers for himself.

Paul O

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boabr-ms-1b-p1-char2.jpg

Thank you, Brent. Do let us know when your book becomes available. I look forward to seeing the old paradigm built by Nibley dismantled right before the eyes of everyone.

The truth will always prevail in the end. The KEP is a powerful record - capable of opening minds like no other document can. I am grateful that I've come to appreciate its value. People don't know what they are missing. Oh well. Line upon line and precept upon precept; some people just can't venture where they don't want to go.

Paul O

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Paul O:

Face facts people and embrace the truth. The KEP is a goldmine.

I have your word for it. But that's about all I have, I'm afraid. And you failed to answer my main question:

Still, the EAG provides only a fraction of English text per character as compared to the ratio between symbol/text in the "translation" manuscripts. Paul, how do you respond to this?

You continue:

This is a long and drawn out subject and you will have to spend many hours gazing into these things in order to have your mind opened. It will take time.

Now, I suggest you read the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 several times, out loud as well as in your mind. Let the words flow into your soul - hunger for the words to fill your mind with knowledge. Seek the best gifts and have faith you will get them.

Get yourself a complete copy of these documents. Read, ponder, and pray about them. Blow off what LDS critics have said about the KEP. If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God and get answers for himself.

I must confess that I see your lips moving but I hear nothing coming out. Perhaps it is only meant to be understood by the "elect" and my failure to understand is simply a sign that I am not among them?

PROVIS, COMMENTS LIKE THIS ARE NOT WELCOME! KEEP IT UP AND YOU WON'T BE EITHER!

DEXIOS

Mmmmmm .... this possibility along with the derision heaped upon me by exegete is almost more than I can bear for one day.

I guess my only consolation is knowing that not even a fraction of 144,000 is likely to understand this any more than I do. Therefore there must be some allowance for us unlearned folks in order to "make up the number".

Whew! I feel a little better now.

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Thank you, Brent. Do let us know when your book becomes available. I look forward to seeing the old paradigm built by Nibley dismantled right before the eyes of everyone.

There are moments that just don't get much better....like seeing Paul and Brent aligned in "scholarship" soley on the basis of who they disdain.

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Paul O:

The truth will always prevail in the end. The KEP is a powerful record - capable of opening minds like no other document can. I am grateful that I've come to appreciate its value. People don't know what they are missing. Oh well. Line upon line and precept upon precept; some people just can't venture where they don't want to go.  (emphasis mine)

Paul, I must admit that I grow increasingly mystified and astounded at what you claim to have uncovered (apparently between the lines) in what appears to most as an extremely abstruse collection of documents. "Capable of opening minds like no other document can." ???? Are you sure you're not also enlisting the aid of Timothy Leary in your quest to "open your mind"?

(Maybe THAT is the answer?! However, I'm simply not as young as I used to be, and I just don't think I can strap myself to that rocket booster again at this stage of the game!)

And meanwhile, you assure us that this is the most powerful and enlightening document to emerge since the Magna Carta, and we mere mortals remain earthbound and benighted while you glory in your special knowledge.

I don't think you're being very generous. I would share if I were you.

Timothy Leary shared.

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== How does one do that based on very selective scans and best very uneducated guesses about what it "looks like"?

We might as well as John Gee since this describes his presentation perfectly. He provided very selective scans, with extremely bad lighting, and ended up giving us terrible guesses about the KEP. And it is wrong to suggest scholars on both sides do not have access to the required material. Brent has color photos of the originals but Gee and company have access to the original documents. And didn't Kerry Shirts and Tvetdness have access to the Papyri in their own research? The problem is not disclosure for LDS scholars. The problem is that the arguments provided by LDS scholars have so far been inadequate, and borderline absurd. The problem is that everyday folk like us are denied access. If there is going to be a forthcoming apologetic that "works" it will probably have to come from the talented amateurs, since the professionals have lost credibility.

== I don't see where to go here without a resolution of your objection and resolving it by calling you a "jackass" isnt' exactly what I was hoping for.

Come on. Provis has been thoroughly responded to in every 'objection' he has raised, so it is inaccurate to suggest that calling him a name is all that has been done. This came after Provis made it clear he held Brent in contempt. He has apologized to me for the attacks but he has not apologized to Brent, nor do I think he plans to. Again, a cursory examination of this discussion will show that Brent was the recipient of attacks from the very beginning, long before he ever responded with the "jackass" comment (which seems to be an acceptable response when it comes from the lips of Dan Peterson).

== There are moments that just don't get much better....like seeing Paul and Brent aligned in "scholarship" soley on the basis of who they disdain... A slight improvement over "jackass", I guess.

Please illustrate what posts like these add to the discussion. You are polluting an awesome discussion that was going so well...

Provis, I am sorry I have not respnded to your post yet. I kinda got lost as the thread took off again.

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I think Paul & Brent raise some valid points. I am not sure I disdain Hugh Nibley, or John Gee, but I have doubts about what they have written.

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Paul O:
Face facts people and embrace the truth. The KEP is a goldmine.

I have your word for it. But that's about all I have, I'm afraid. And you failed to answer my main question:

Still, the EAG provides only a fraction of English text per character as compared to the ratio between symbol/text in the "translation" manuscripts. Paul, how do you respond to this?

You continue:

This is a long and drawn out subject and you will have to spend many hours gazing into these things in order to have your mind opened. It will take time.

Now, I suggest you read the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 several times, out loud as well as in your mind. Let the words flow into your soul - hunger for the words to fill your mind with knowledge. Seek the best gifts and have faith you will get them.

Get yourself a complete copy of these documents. Read, ponder, and pray about them. Blow off what LDS critics have said about the KEP. If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God and get answers for himself.

I must confess that I see your lips moving but I hear nothing coming out. Perhaps it is only meant to be understood by the "elect" and my failure to understand is simply a sign that I am not among them?

Mmmmmm .... this possibility along with the derision heaped upon me by exegete is almost more than I can bear for one day.

I guess my only consolation is knowing that not even a fraction of 144,000 is likely to understand this any more than I do. Therefore there must be some allowance for us unlearned folks in order to "make up the number".

Whew! I feel a little better now.

You must have skipped a post because I did answer your question.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=430286

I wonder if you will answer my question. That shouldn't be too hard.

Paul O

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As to the unholy alliance between Paul O. and Brother Brent, I cannot believe that my "poor excuse for an apologetic" has been sufficient to bring them together. Certainly there are other points of convergence of which we are not aware.

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Thank you, Brent. Do let us know when your book becomes available. I look forward to seeing the old paradigm built by Nibley dismantled right before the eyes of everyone.

There are moments that just don't get much better....like seeing Paul and Brent aligned in "scholarship" soley on the basis of who they disdain.

Brent is exposing truth, Julianne. I love truth.

Don't think for a second that this is the Church of Hugh Nibley of Latter-day Saints. It's not. The man enjoyed way too much power in Church education. There is a cult following within the Church that raises him to levels that I disdain. You shouldn't have a problem with that.

Paul O

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I think Paul & Brent raise some valid points. I am not sure I disdain Hugh Nibley, or John Gee, but I have doubts about what they have written.

Which is why it would be very helpful if the withering disdain and accusations of lying would stop. I'm still trying to figure out why the sun rises and falls on the opinions of "apologists" when it is so clear they are considered almost sub human anyway.

I think we can all agree that Nibley and Gee need some updating, correct? Gosh...they might even have made some mistakes! Right? So what is the point in the snarling and ad hominem...if there is such a good argument against them? Isn't that what you criticize the mopologists for, Kevin? huh? The personal stuff? Why not take the high road and show us the way? Why are you demanding Gee answer untrained countermopologists when Metcalfe can't even write a civil post on a message board....while openingly sneering that he is just too knowledgable to descend to everyone else's level and respond? What is with the double standards? It is one thing to have them...it is quite another to claim high moral ground when you are standing on them.

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NOTE TO ALL POSTERS ON THIS THREAD!

I HAVE DELETED OFFENDING POSTS THAT WERE OFF TOPIC AND THAT SPECULATED AT OTHER PEOPLE LYING ETC. WE ARE NOT GOING TO TOLERATE SUCH BEHAVIOR. DEMONSTRATE THE OTHER PARTIES WEAKNESS BY CONTRASTING YOUR OWN STRENGTH OF ARGUMENT. LEAVE OUT PERSONAL INSULTS, EVEN IF VERY PITHY AND IF YOU THINK THEY MAKE YOU LOOK SMARTER ETC.

SUCH BEHAVIOUR IS NOT APPRECIATED ON THIS BOARD. GOOD NATURED AND EVEN SPIRITED DEBATE IS WELCOMED.

DEXIOS

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Joshua:

Ippolito Rosellini (Champollion's Italian side-kick) read Champollion's

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Timothy Leary shared.

It's been 26 years since I dropped my last hit of acid. No flashbacks here. When was your last hit?

I'm sorry that the KEP doesn't do it for you. All I can do is advocate it and express my joy in this work. I realize that I step on toes while doing so. I realize that I am a critic of famous LDS scholars because they didn't back this work.

But you know what? I don't care. You will get your answers when you're ready for them. I guess I really am extra special!!

Paul O

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KG:

The longer this discussion goes, the more of Brent's scans we see.

Hear, hear.

In all honesty, I (personally) am not bothered by Brent's retorts, and I really don't believe he is that bothered by mine. In his eyes, the rest of us are so far down the intellectual food chain as to be almost microscopic. And I'm content to have him go on believing that so long as he desires. I'm pretty confident that, if he is wrong about his assumptions and conclusions, it will come out eventually. And I'm very patient. And who knows, maybe he'll convince me of the error my ways, I'll join the team, and then employ a coup d'etat to displace him on the throne of Signature Books. However, I'd probably then change the name of the house to "X" Books to reflect the abrupt change in relative scholarly achievement.

Edited to remove part of the quote I wasn't intending to respond to with my "hear, hear".

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I knew this was a crazy idea to think this discussion could stand on the FAIR forum. Juliann is free to make wild accusations to her hearts content, while I am not even permitted to offer the mildest of corrections, nor am I allowed to take control of MY thread.

Deleting my recent post that had not one single comment deserving of censorship, is not doing FAIR any favors here. Things were going so well...

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OK, well it looks like a stick has been thrown in the spokes of this discussion. I guess I'll go pursue a productive life for the rest of the afternoon. I'll check back later to see if perhaps the vitality of the thread has been resurrected. I do believe in the power of resurrection, so I will hope for the best.

Ci vediamo ...

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== In all honesty, I (personally) am not bothered by Brent's retorts,

I didn't think you were either. Even the brief name-calling seemed like ancient history, because the pace of the discussion is moving so quickly. You guys seemed to have gotten past that on your own.

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juliann,

While I agree in part with the content of your messages, I fully agree with KG that this is not the place. Please stick to the subject at hand. I'll really be pissed if this thread gets closed because of juvenile bickering. And that goes for everyone.

PacMan

P.S. Paul, I honestly have NOOO idea what your quote is implying. Get to the point please. What point does it serve?

P.S.S. Your taunts of cowardice are (apart from unfounded) also classified in the 'juvenile bickering' category.

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I think personally on this ussue we should discuss issues not other persons. I have some issues with John Gee's & Hugh Nibley's Book of Abraham missing papyrus points, but I respect them for a lot of good stuff they have written, and even most of what they have written atleast what I have been exposed to. And they have written a lot of good on the Book of Abraham also.

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