Did John Whitmer actually see the plates?

[Dan Vogel]

Cdowis,

Dan, it would be very helpful if you could give us your distinction between visionary and real.

I assume, for example, that they are mutually exclusive. You cannot have a vision that is "real". Am I correct?

On my planet, it is possible to see a vision but that it does exist in reality. An well-known example is when the resurrected Christ appeared to his disciples. "A ghost has not flesh and blood as ye see me have." They felt the wounds on his haands and feet. It was a real experience.

Apparently, on your planet, if something suddenly appears, it is a vision, and does not exist in reality. The plates apparently appeared suddenly in their midst, so it did not exist in reality. They hefted the plates, turning the pages and looking at the engravings.

But nothing was actually there, even as the apostles felt nothing in reality when they felt Christ's hands and feet. It was all a "vision", is that correct?

The apostles were touching a vision, the eight witnesses were hefting a vision. Is that your view?

Again, it would be helpful if you were to clarify exactly what you mean.

I

[thesometimesaint]

Dn vogel:

I am familiar with the study of hallucinations. Some have auditory, some have taste, or sight, or smell, a few have touch. But to have sight, touch, sound hallucinations at the same time, from 8 different people, who are respected members of their community, borders on miraculous , if not the impossible.

[charity]

Dan you said, "However, I can tell you my reasons for skepticism in this matter. I don

[cdowis]

>I just wonder how you can make any pretension at being a historian when you admit you have a closed mind.

I disagree that stating a conclusion necessarily makes one closed minded.

[charity]

Stating a conclusion that you have reached considering the evidence is what scientisits, historians, etc. do. But starting out with a conclusion is the closed mind part.

What if Sir Alexander Fleming had started out looking for an antibiotic and said, "I will look wherever it takes, but I know I won't find it from mold. So anything that looks like it kills bacteria that comes from mold, I will have to throw out. Because it couldn't possibly work."

That is Vogel's position. "The Book of Mormon is absolutely not historical. So anything that makes it look like it is couldn't possibly be correct and I will just have to find a way to throw out that evidence."

That screams CLOSED MIND.

[Scott Lloyd]

Dn vogel:

I am familiar with the study of hallucinations. Some have auditory, some have taste, or sight, or smell, a few have touch. But to have sight, touch, sound hallucinations at the same time, from 8 different people, who are respected members of their community, borders on miraculous , if not the impossible.

And Mormons are the ones who are supposed to believe outlandish things?

[Jaybear]

I agree, that does sound outlandish, and improbable.

Though I could see two or three being manipulated, into believing something had occured and endorsing a broad group statement, particulary if they have been convinced that others had seen something. This could especially be the case, if participating in the experience was somehow tied to spiritual worthiness.

Alternatively, I could see that no event took place, and that the various witnessess, were either coconspirators, or coerced, bribed or intimidated into going along.

The latter would certainly explain why it was not signed, and why there are, apprantly no contemporaneus personalized statements of what occured, and most importantly, why the "witnesses" are all related to someone with a vested financial interest in selling the BoM.

Then again, it could all be true.

Since there are no plates to put to the test, its really all speculation.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Co-conspirators? Possible, but highly unlikely in that JS would have to had the ability to maintain the conspiracy after his death.

Coerced? again for the above reason.

Intimidated? again for the above reason

Bribed? The investors lost their money.

[cdowis]

That is Vogel's position. "The Book of Mormon is absolutely not historical. So anything that makes it look like it is couldn't possibly be correct and I will just have to find a way to throw out that evidence."

That screams CLOSED MIND.

I agree completely. The second sentence obviously "sceams" of a closed mind.

Now please give us the reference where actually Vogel said this.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Co-conspirators? Possible, but highly unlikely in that JS would have had the ability to maintain the conspiracy after his death.

Coerced? again for the above reason.

Intimidated? again for the above reason

Bribed? The investors lost their money.

Highly unlikey? What is the basis for that opinion?

What would they have had to gain for comming forward?

In my expecience people who put thier name and reputation on the line don't recant a lie unless they forced to do so. Even those with no reputation to protect, once they tell a lie, become intractable. Afterall, prisons are full on innocent people. Confessions of guilt occur only when something tangible is offered in return, like a reduced sentence.

By contrast, what did they have to lose? Would it have been a bad idea for them to cross Brigham Young?

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Conspiracy have the nasty habit of falling apart after the main initiators are dead.

The acclaim and approbration of the enemies of the Church.

I worked in the jails too. We don't get into guilt or innocence.

AHH those darned Danites AGAIN.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Conspiracy have the nasty habit of falling apart after the main initiators are dead.

The acclaim and approbration of the enemies of the Church.

I worked in the jails too. We don't get into guilt or innocence.

AHH those darned Danites AGAIN.

How do you know conspiracies have a tendency to fall apart? Personal observation? Empirical analysis? Anecdotal evidence from the movies? Wishful thinking?

Just because you say it, doesnt mean it true. There is no possible way to prove or disprove such an assertion. One could only show how many conspiracies have fallen apart.

That's not analysis. Its spin.

[USU78]

How do you know conspiracies have a tendency to fall apart? Personal observation? Empirical analysis? Anecdotal evidence from the movies? Wishful thinking?

Just because you say it, doesnt mean it true. There is no possible way to prove or disprove such an assertion. One could only show how many conspiracies have fallen apart.

That's not analysis. Its spin.

The apologist can legitimately argue that the claim of conspiracy is not supportable, since there are no historical examples of all conspirators having kept mum at all times on the conspiracy.

Perhaps the question ought to be: can a counterexample be produced? Can you or anyone show us where all the conspirators stayed mum?

[Jaybear]

USU:

The apologist can legitimately argue that the claim of conspiracy is not supportable, since there are no historical examples of all conspirators having kept mum at all times on the conspiracy.

Perhaps the question ought to be: can a counterexample be produced? Can you or anyone show us where all the conspirators stayed mum?

Your kidding, right?

Here's an easy one, and topical.

Who shot Joseph Smith?

[USU78]

USU:

The apologist can legitimately argue that the claim of conspiracy is not supportable, since there are no historical examples of all conspirators having kept mum at all times on the conspiracy.

Perhaps the question ought to be: can a counterexample be produced? Can you or anyone show us where all the conspirators stayed mum?

Your kidding, right?

Here's an easy one, and topical.

Who shot Joseph Smith?

Not a good analogy.

The Illuminati:

Who: The "Illuminati" conspiracy behind JSJr's production of the BoM must, at very least, include Sidney Rigdon, probably Oliver Cowdery, and others, possibly [probably at very least] the 3 witnesses.

What: What they allegedly produce is the BoM, with JSJr as front man to make the supernatural claims.

Why: Here it breaks down, and the best one can do is argue that, somehow, the Illuminati would gain a. money; and/or b. political/practical power. The reason for the breakdown of the Illuminati conspiracy theory is that, once it was demonstrated that nobody was ever going to make much money, indeed everybody on the inside was ruined financially, the motivation for keeping the conspiracy secret disappeared.

The Martyrdom:

Who: This is a fascinating issue, as mob violence by individuals tricked out as Indians, a hoary custom going back at least to the Tea Party (probably beyond). The mob's leaders are and were not at all a secret, but prosecutions came up zippo during those lawless days [pun intended].

What: Get rid of JSJr and get the Mormons out of Dodge by hook or by crook.

Why: This is variously explained, from Whig politics to Satanic influence to Lord knows what, none of it well-defined.

Who is not seriously in question here. They never really bothered, besides the Indian gear, to keep their identities a secret. Hell, the perps were boasting within days, but, as stated, prosecutions failed.

So . . . just what sort of connection can one make between: a. an alleged conspiracy whose secrets the supposed participants took to their graves; and b. a real conspiracy whose participants never bothered to keep secret? How is the one like the other?

I guess I'm just slow.

[StudioD]

So, if groups of people witnessed an extraordinary event and none of them denied of its veracity; then it was a real experience? Yet, can we apply this same approach to James Strang and his translation of the plates of Laban? Seven witnesses testified of the truthfulness of the translation. As far as I know none of the witnesses denied the existence of the plates. Was this an actual experience to them or a conspiracy?

[Dan Vogel]

Thesometimesaint,

I am familiar with the study of hallucinations. Some have auditory, some have taste, or sight, or smell, a few have touch. But to have sight, touch, sound hallucinations at the same time, from 8 different people, who are respected members of their community, borders on miraculous , if not the impossible.

True, hallucinations involving more than one sense are not typical, but not unheard of. However, you don

[Dan Vogel]

That is Vogel's position. "The Book of Mormon is absolutely not historical. So anything that makes it look like it is couldn't possibly be correct and I will just have to find a way to throw out that evidence."

Of course, these are your words, not mine. It

[thesometimesaint]

Dan Vogel:

THE TESTIMONY OF

EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER

JACOB WHITMER

PETER WHITMER, JUN.

JOHN WHITMER

HIRAM PAGE

JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.

HYRUM SMITH

SAMUEL H. SMITH

For your reading enjoyment.

[William the Conqueror]

Thesometimesaint,

I am familiar with the study of hallucinations. Some have auditory, some have taste, or sight, or smell, a few have touch. But to have sight, touch, sound hallucinations at the same time, from 8 different people, who are respected members of their community, borders on miraculous , if not the impossible.

True, hallucinations involving more than one sense are not typical, but not unheard of. However, you don

[thesometimesaint]

William the Conqueror:

Your conclusion from my statement is faulty. I was convinced of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon long before I even read the statement of the witnesses.

I have yet to see anything that would dissuade me for the truthfulness of these men, and of the millions of sober individuals that have born testamony to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, myself included.

[charity]

Dan, your position has been described in those terms. That you absolutely dispute a supernatural explanation for any events occuring in relationship to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. That in line with this underlying belief, you do not accept any testimony, evidence, etc. of a physical presence of plates. If this is not correct, would you please correct me?

Now, about what you said: "The only thing that matters is responding to my evidence and arguments. If you can

[Pahoran]

Thesometimesaint,

I am familiar with the study of hallucinations. Some have auditory, some have taste, or sight, or smell, a few have touch. But to have sight, touch, sound hallucinations at the same time, from 8 different people, who are respected members of their community, borders on miraculous , if not the impossible.

True, hallucinations involving more than one sense are not typical, but not unheard of. However, you don

[Dan Vogel]

Pahoran,

Having reached this absurd conclusion, Dan then goes looking for supporting evidence. There is none to be found in any of the statements the witnesses made first hand, so he is reduced to relying upon hearsay sources, of which there are but two:

The two accounts gave me the idea; I didn

[thesometimesaint]

Dan Vogel:

Nowhere do the eight claim it was a vision.

For your reading enjoyment.

THE TESTIMONY OF

EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER

JACOB WHITMER

PETER WHITMER, JUN.

JOHN WHITMER

HIRAM PAGE

JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.

HYRUM SMITH

SAMUEL H. SMITH

It is up to you to show where they do claim it was a vision.