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aaronshaf

What did the Nauvoo Expositor lie about?

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USU78,

I will agree with your "covetousness" to a degree - If you will agree it was again applicable to both sides. I'm sure that there were elements of "covetousness" - relating to land, possessions, wealth, polical power, etc. on both sides. The thing to realize here is that any "covetousness" on the part of Joseph Smith or the saints is going to be portrayed as "the will of the Lord" and any "covetousness" on the part of the "not-the-saints" is going to be portrayed as "the devil tempting the hearts of men".

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The thing to realize here is that any "covetousness" on the part of Joseph Smith or the saints is going to be portrayed as "the will of the Lord" and any "covetousness" on the part of the "not-the-saints" is going to be portrayed as "the devil tempting the hearts of men".

I don't doubt for a minute covetousness being a sin amongst Nauvoo-era or modern Mormons. "Folks is folks - East or West" as the old saying goes.

Here is a bit of what the Saints then were being warned against (all references are to the D&C):

19:26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the btruth and the word of God

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...and they generally took the crappiest pieces, drained their malarial swamps, irrigated their dry arid deserts and made them flower like the garden of eden before anyone else took interest in them.

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...and they generally took the crappiest pieces, drained their malarial swamps, irrigated their dry arid deserts and made them flower like the garden of eden before anyone else took interest in them.

Actually, Nauvoo had long been considered a prime site on the Mississippi -- it was

where the water got more shallow and rough (Des Moines rapids) and was a perfect

spot for offloading and onloading river steamer cargo, had not ports on the Iowa side

been developed for that purpose instead, alter on.

The city area was first laid out as the town of "Venus," with an early post office, as I

recall -- then was developed as "Commerce," to some extent. The land was not at

all "crappy." If you have visited there, you'll know that the sites on the "bluffs" where

the temple has been rebuilt was in no way bad land.

Nauvoo7a.jpg

Since the town was meant to be a port, some part of the riverfront had to be cleared

and developed of course -- but the wetlands might have better been left in tact -- as

they are still prone to flooding, if the river rises even a foot or two.

All Mississippi riverfront towns suffered from malaria -- even if their swamps were

drained. Only after extensive land development did the malaria carrying mosquitoes

leave for wetter climes -- and even then, usually only a mile or two away. The people

most prone to the worst cases of malaria simply died off.

Had the Mormons not bought up Nauvoo in 1839, it would have been developed on a

smaller scale by the Gentiles -- perhaps even on a greater scale, if the steamboat

traffic could have been diverted there.

The only thing remarkable about the Mormon settlement there is the huge increase

in population -- mostly unemployed -- mostly proverty-stricken. That, and the

make-work empolyment that construction on the Nauvoo House and the Temple

offered to the still penniless newcomers.

So, if the Mormons took a greater "interest" in the Nauvoo site than others, it was

primarily because so many of them congregated there in such a short period of time.

My thoughts are that the "gathering" at Nauvoo was a huge waste of energy and

human resources -- and that the Saints would have done much better for themselves

had they lived in numerous scattered communities in western Illinois and eastern

Iowa, cooperating with their Gentile neighbors to build up MANY parts of the region,

and not just one "white elephant" town.

Uncle Dale

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Of course the real estate around Commerce had good potential, but it was the Saints that developed it, and they didn't run anyone out on a rail to get it.

The wonderful farming land in northwester Ohio, some prime real estate was once in its original form a bit different too. It was called the "Great Black Swamp", and declared uninhabitable and impossible to cross safely.

The Saints did scatter themselves accross the Iowa side of the river and around the county. They had to congregate a bit more tightly when others came to burn their crops and homes.

The gathering was a good way to establish people in a new world, and once left to their own devices, the Saints did a good job of it in Salt Lake, and now send the Gospel, educated leaders, and physical aid and sustinance all over the world from their little isolated spot.

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The gathering was a good way to establish people in a new world, and once left to their own devices, the Saints did a good job of it in Salt Lake, and now send the Gospel, educated leaders, and physical aid and sustinance all over the world from their little isolated spot.

After the arrival of Johnson's Army in 1858 and the Union Pacific in 1869, things

went swimmingly in the west.

I didn't condemn the notion of a "gathering" in general -- just those sorts of gatherings

whereby thousands and thousands of outsiders descend upon a township or a county

and take it over socially and politically, so as to raise ever more friction with their

neighbors.

Think what life might be like in Manti, Utah, if Warren Jeffs ordered all of his followers

to congregate there, and to bring in hundreds of new converts every month. I imagine

that the FLDS would soon repeat the "Mormon wars" of 1846-47, were such a modern

phenomenon to suddenly occur, and with the incoming FLDS asserting that God had

given them San Pete Co. for an "inhertance," insomuch as "the earth is the Lord's,

and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that He maketh to dwell therein."

In 1847, in Deseret the only "neighbors" were the Utes and they weren't running

candidates in competition with Brigham, for the local legislature, at any rate.

Uncle Dale

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Just imagine. If all of Warren Jeffs followers congragated in Manti...

They might have to add another traffic light.

How about this. Just imagine if Boston were overrun by federal troops because of that terrible Catholic voting block and stranglehold on local resources.

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Just imagine. If all of Warren Jeffs followers congragated in Manti...

They might have to add another traffic light.

How about this. Just imagine if Boston were overrun by federal troops because of that terrible Catholic voting block and stranglehold on local resources.

Or those awful Jews in Brooklyn.

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Just imagine.  If all of Warren Jeffs followers congragated in Manti...

They might have to add another traffic light.

How about this.  Just imagine if Boston were overrun by federal troops because of that terrible Catholic voting block and stranglehold on local resources.

Or those awful Jews in Brooklyn.

Being part of an extended Jewish family, I have sometimes been asked how I would

vote in local and national elections -- which I have generally refused to discuss with

my relatives.

However, it is my impression that even the "Jews in Brooklyn" do not vote on all issues

and all candidates as a solid block. I'm told that many Orthodox do not vote at all.

So, while it is possible to identify parts of NYC that are primarily Jewish neighborhoods,

and parts of Boston that as primarily RCC neighborhoods, I see no evidence of the

kind of block-voting there, based upon a "living prophet's" instructions that I see in

the old election returns from Hancock County, Illinois, prior to 1847.

Suppose that 10,000 FLDS (I'm not sure they actually have that many adult members)

really did gather to Manti, or to some other location in Utah -- and once in residence

there, began to bring in hundreds of converts each week -- don't you suppose that

such a gathering, under the control of a self-proclaimed "living prophet," would cause

considerably more friction with the "locals," than has the RCC presence in Boston, or

the Jewish presence in NYC?

0521385547.gif

Ask the folks who watched Bhagawan Shri Rajneesh try to take over a small county in

Oregon during the early 1980s.

Uncle "yeah, I know, any comparison of JS to Rajneesh is an automatic FMB thread closer" Dale

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Suppose that 10,000 FLDS (I'm not sure they actually have that many adult members) really did gather to Manti, or to some other location in Utah -- and once in residence

there, began to bring in hundreds of converts each week -- don't you suppose that such a gathering, under the control of a self-proclaimed "living prophet," would cause considerably more friction with the "locals," than has the RCC presence in Boston, or the Jewish presence in NYC?

Ah, yes, our Short Creek cousins.

Starting with the present guy's father, they have become a very difficult bunch.

About 18 years ago I was involved with the lawsuit by the "2nd Warders" against the then "Guy," who had excommunicated several 2nd Warders and issued eviction notices for them.

Their version of the United Order, while claimed to have been based upon the LDS D&C provisions, which they called the "United Effort Plan Trust," required members to convey their homes into the Trust upon paying off the mortgages.

I left the firm before the matter came to its conclusion.

"Covetousness" indeed.

Now we see them continuing the XIXth Century (and very short-lived) custom of marrying young girls off to older men, and more often than not near relatives, which has got the Attorneys General of Utah and Arizona issuing arrest warrants and seizing the UEP's assets and administering them for the benefit of the membership (or so they say).

Moreover, for quite a while many of the members of the group have engaged in welfare fraud, their wives receiving benefits while not disclosing all of the potential wageearners in the household(s).

A sad business, really.

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Their version of the United Order, while claimed to have been based upon the LDS D&C provisions, which they called the "United Effort Plan Trust," required members to convey their homes into the Trust upon paying off the mortgages.

Sounds good to me -- when we made up our will, I suggested to my wife that we leave

our condo to the "United Order of Enoch."

apartments-utah-orderville.jpg

Uncle "needless to say, she was not impresssed with that notion" Dale

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Their version of the United Order, while claimed to have been based upon the LDS D&C provisions, which they called the "United Effort Plan Trust," required members to convey their homes into the Trust upon paying off the mortgages.

Sounds good to me -- when we made up our will, I suggested to my wife that we leave

our condo to the "United Order of Enoch."

apartments-utah-orderville.jpg

Uncle "needless to say, she was not impresssed with that notion" Dale

:P

USU "Imagining the scene at the 2006 Seder at the Broadhurst Home, with D'Unk relegated to the cheap seats on the North rim of Haleakala with no matzoh to keep him warm" 78

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Uncle "needless to say, she was not impresssed with that notion" Dale

:P

USU "Imagining the scene at the 2006 Seder at the Broadhurst Home, with D'Unk relegated to the cheap seats on the North rim of Haleakala with no matzoh to keep him warm" 78

The main problem in the will codicil, as I understand it, would be for my executor to

try and track down the beneficiary of the condo bequest.

The United Firm was divided (by revelation) into the firms at Kirtland and Zion, which

were further divided (by revelation) into the business firm and the printing firm. Since

Oliver Cowdery and F. G. Williams allowed the Kirtland printing firm to revert to the

Church, the executor's best bet would be to track down the fate of the Kirtland business

firm.

But, alas, it too was dissolved (by revelation) -- and it seems that the executor would

be forced into locating the heirs of "Gazelem" and "Pelagoram," in order to dispose of

my Hawaiian condo.

Solomon-like, the executor might be best advised to saw the condo in half -- giving

part to the Gazelemites (CoC's JS descendants) and part to the Pelagoramites (the

family of Sidney Rigdon).

oliver03.jpg

Pelegoram is baptized by Gazelem's cousin

Or, perhaps the Pelagoramites would have sense enough to buy out the condo claim

of the cash-strapped CoC, and my snug little townshouse could be thence be reunited

with the modern namesakes of my own snug little SidneyRigdon.com.

All's Well that Ends Well

Uncle "so long as the Pelagian Pelagoramites don't mess with my web files, all should be just dandy" Dale

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o long as the Pelagian Pelagoramites don't mess with my web files, all should be just dandy[.]

"They say," says he, "that the saints in the Old Testament were not without sins,--that is that they were not free from crimes even by amendment, but they were seized by death in their guilt." Nay, I say that either before the law, or in the time of the Old Testament, they were freed from sins,--not by their own power*, because "cursed is every one that hath put his hope in man," and without any doubt those are under this curse whom also the sacred Psalm notifies, "who trust in their own strength;" nor by the old covenant which gendereth to bondage, although it was divinely given by the grace of a sure dispensation; nor by that law itself, holy and just and good as it was, where it is written, "Thou shalt not covet," since it was not given as being able to give life, but it was added for the sake of transgression until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; but I say that they were freed by the blood of the Redeemer Himself, who is the one Mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus. But those enemies of the grace of God, which is given to small and great through Jesus Christ our Lord, say that the men of God of old were of a perfect righteousness, lest they should be supposed to have needed the incarnation, the passion, and resurrection of Christ, by belief in whom they were saved.

*Quaere: is this an admission that the Master's atonement had retrospective application, or that those who had hope in Savior-Messiah-to-come understood the expiatory power thereof?

USU "Contra Pelagium" 78

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nor by that law itself, holy and just and good as it was, where it is written, "Thou shalt not covet,"

I walk through the streets of Greece, with my lantern held high in broad day, searching

for one honest lawyer --

diogenes.jpeg

Perhaps I should just scale down my exptations and just seek for one non-covetous one, eh?

Uncle "I wonder what Diogenes would have thought of Pelagius?" Dale

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nor by that law itself, holy and just and good as it was, where it is written, "Thou shalt not covet,"

I walk through the streets of Greece, with my lantern held high in broad day, searching

for one honest lawyer --

diogenes.jpeg

Perhaps I should just scale down my exptations and just seek for one non-covetous one, eh?

Uncle "I wonder what Diogenes would have thought of Pelagius?" Dale

146785.jpg

Well I'll be . . . D'Unk does great Greek, he does!

USU "Bobbin' and Weavin'" 78

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Well I'll be . . .  D'Unk does great Greek, he does!

Well, as they say -- when in Thesslonika; do as the Thesslonikans do....

ANCIENTTASTESLOGO.jpg

Uncle "please pass the stuffed olive leaves and goat cheese" Dale

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Uncle Dale and USU, we are receiving complaints about the very clever but very huge and frequent graphics that consume half a page. Please cease and desist. :P

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Uncle Dale and USU, we are receiving complaints about the very clever but very huge and frequent graphics that consume half a page. Please cease and desist. :P

OK -- I'll try very hard to have sympathy for my poor, "dial-up" cousins, whose

monitors are getting clogged with slow-loading graphics.

Feel free to delete anything I've thus far posted to FMB threads that might cause

problems.

As for this thread, I think we all know as much about the Nauvoo Expositor

as we care to learn-- it can die a quiet death.

Uncle Dale

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Uncle Dale and USU, we are receiving complaints about the very clever but very huge and frequent graphics that consume half a page. Please cease and desist. <_<

:P

Guess we've been baaaad boys, eh, Unk?

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Uncle Dale and USU,  we are receiving complaints about the very clever but very huge and frequent graphics that consume half a page.    Please cease and desist.  <_<

:P

Guess we've been baaaad boys, eh, Unk?

From now on -- only very small images allowed.

However, by going to enlargetheimage.com, we can use their handy-dandy

micro-enlargement feature to blow up the miniscule pics here allowed.

For example --- here is a night-time satellite image the Western Hemisphere,

at 1 million by 1 million pixels, reduced 99.9999%

bluebullet.jpg

Can you see the lights of Nibley Ward, just south of the Logan Temple?

Uncle "find one smaller and I'll buy you lunch at Dees Family Restaurant" Dale

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