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Does the Bible teach the doctrine


David Bokovoy

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And as far as "Shoehorning" goes... how is it "shoehorning" when Judaism, Esseenses, Early Christians, such as Origen. Which All predate Mormons as well as Modern Christians (who dismisal of the doctrine) held the doctrine?

I'm not a Jew, nor am I an Essene. Origen speculated about the preexistence, but also did not lay it out as hard and true doctrine. I'll have to find the place, but he acknowledges that he is speculating. Also, among all the ECF, Origen was one of the most Platonic-influenced, which obviously informed his perspective on the subject. Apparently the mainstream Christians are not the only ones with Greek-corrupted doctrines lying about :P

I don't really see what those verses about God's judgment have to do with anything. This isn't a salvation thread.

If this is true, then there is no such thing as free agency, and predetermination is true.

Not necessarily. There's a big difference between knowing something beforehand and causing it with no free choice on the part of the chosen.

Actually it does point to a pre existance... because the children where alive while in the womb. Yet they where merely zygotes until they became fully formed.

Where does it say Jacob and Esau knew God before they were in the womb? That's the only thing that would bolster the preexistence doctrine; otherwise it is more easily seen as God's foreknowledge once again.

Yes the Angelic hosts... what exactly is a "host?

Angelic host=many angels.

The Isaiah thing doesn't really fit with the topic, so maybe we can discuss that later. Considering this is "Beat Up on the EV" time, I don't want to spoil your fun with tangents <_<

Take care, everyone :unsure:

P.S. Also, are the "sons of God" mentioned in Psalm 82 the same ones mentioned in Job? Are they preexistent men, or are they gods? I'm not quite getting that point. Thanks! :ph34r:

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David,

Thanks for your well referenced response. I think my follow-up is along the lines of rhinomelon's. As in how well can it be established that sons of God became mortal men? Were the sons of God actually to make a transition into mortality before being served the death punishment, or was their punishment merely to be analogous to a mortal death?

-fool

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Hi Rhino,

So they aren't preexistent people? Then why bring it into the preexistence debate? Wouldn't that be better served in a "plurality of gods" thread?

As it currently stands, Psalm 82 does not specifically link the Sons of God with human beings. This theological concept can, however, be extracted from other biblical texts. Remember, Luke identifies Adam as a Son of God (3:38).

Sorry if I'm a bit defensive. I'm sort of forced into debate mode on several fronts here.

Actually, you seem like a very pleasant person. Thanks for taking the time to converse.

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Hello Fool,

Thanks for your well referenced response. I think my follow-up is along the lines of rhinomelon's. As in how well can it be established that sons of God became mortal men? Were the sons of God actually to make a transition into mortality before being served the death punishment, or was their punishment merely to be analogous to a mortal death?

Personally, I think Psalm 82 only preserves traces of the LDS view of the pre-mortal council. I believe that the Psalm speaks about actual Gods in Yahweh

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Sorry if I'm a bit defensive. I'm sort of forced into debate mode on several fronts here.

Actually, you seem like a very pleasant person. Thanks for taking the time to converse.

rhinomelon is unfailingly polite, respectful, substantive, and informed.

He is the best representative of the EVC position I have ever encountered.

If this post is illegal for being about another poster so be it. I just felt like saying that.

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Returning to my original point. I find it very interesting that the Old Testament contains several passages, which feature the notion of a preexistent human soul that God extracts from the ground, i.e. spirit world in the process of creation.

Jehovah appears, at least in some sources, to have played an important role in this procedure. Genesis 4:1 should read,

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For your consideration is a quote from my Nelsen study bible on Psalm 82:

"The structure of the psalm is as follows: 1. God's call for the judges of the earth to appear in the heavenly assembly: 2; God's review of His commands to the judges of the earth: 3; God's hearing of the complaint of the oppressed: 4; Gods announcement of His judgment on the judges of the earth: 5; the prayer of the people of the earth for divine justice.

The congregation of the mighty refers to an assembly before God. As a wisdom writer, the poet Asaph uses the language of Job 1, Ps 110, and Is. 6 as a teaching device to present a morality tale. Asaph describes the wicked judges of all time gathering before God and His angels to give an accounting of themselves. gods: The Hebrew word may refer to the true God or to false gods. Here it is the judges of the earth (see also v 6). Asaph uses this honorific term sarcastically to express his contempt for the evil judges. judge unjustly: The unrighteous judges had perverted their calling, which was to represent God Himself by establishing justice on the earth.

3 God expects all judges to administer true justice. do justice: These words summarize the teaching of the Law and indicate God's basic desire that the defenseless would find a haven of justice in the courts.

5 They do not know is the collective sigh of oppressed people of all ages. Wicked judges act as if they did not care about their official responsibility or the judgment they will face for abusing it. All the foundations of the earth are unstable: In 11:3, the taunt of the wicked is that the earth's foundations are destroyed. This is said to be untrue, for God is still in control. In this psalm, however, the situation is deemed unstable because of the profound wickedness of the judges.

6,7 die like men: Jesus quoted these verses in His exchange with the religious authorities who wanted to stone Him for declaring Himself to be the Son of God (Jn 10:31-35)

8 Arise, O God: In view of the overwhelming disaster that wicked judges have created, the poor and afflicted of all time call out for the true judge, God Himself to come. Their cry will not go unheeded. The righteous Judge is coming, and He will establish justice (96:13; 98:9)."

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Neighoor:

God speaks those things that are not as though they are, for as surely as God says it will be, it will come to pass. We see this as well in the very words of Jesus while on the earth in the flesh. Because He spoke as though the thing current, yet it wasn't yet current, but an event to come (promised gift of the Spirit was spoken of as at the time current, yet it was not given until after Jesus was glorified - another example is the institution of the Lords Supper and His covenant in the body and blood not yet given upon the cross).

That God knows each of us before we do is because He is God. He knows the end from the beginning. His plans and thoughts for each person are to great for us to imagine, let alone to grasp the billions of people involved in His plans for the world.

God's foreknowledge is perfect. We are of the dust of the earth physically, but one aspect of the revelation of the man Jesus Christ is what God made man to be. He is our example of what being a man of God is, yet He, being God veiled in the flesh, was capable to pay the debt due for all sins for all time - but the condition is to believe Jesus Christ, to hear Him, to believe Him, and to do what He said without fear, fainting in faith, or allowing our ffaith to dry up as the parable of the sower so beautifully is given us by His own mouth.

I'd like to hear a "once saved, always saved" explain that parable of Jesus away:-)

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The story of the blind man belies your assertion.  In order for him to have sinned in order to be born blind he would have required some sort of sentience.

As Carson points out in his commentary, there were some in the ancient world that believed persons were capable of sin in the womb. This may be what the disciples had in mind, and not the idea of pre-existence.

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It seems to me that Genesis 2:1 is the most obvious Bible reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence. Notice that before Adam is placed on the earth, a host of people (check your Lexicon) have been created.

Understanding this also helps to support the Book of Moses account of two creations, the one spiritual and corresponding to Genesis 1 and the other physical corresponding to Genesis 2. Obviously, to an LDS person, Genesis has been heavily modifed down through the ages (much is missing)

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Hello BCSpace,

It seems to me that Genesis 2:1 is the most obvious Bible reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence. Notice that before Adam is placed on the earth, a host of people (check your Lexicon) have been created.

This is a nice observation on your part. Former Harvard Professor James Kugel has suggested the possibility of a similar reading:

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It seems to me that Genesis 2:1 is the most obvious Bible reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence. Notice that before Adam is placed on the earth, a host of people (check your Lexicon) have been created.

People (as in humans) or angels? It's not really clear from the quote from Kugel.

I have no problem with angels being created first. But that is not the same as the preexistence of human beings.

Is not a "host" something that recieves a guest?

It can be, yes, but that doesn't have much to do with the thread. Unless it was a joke. Darn my lack of humor! :P

Again speaking of "Shoe horning"... Ex nihilio? At least our reading of the text has ancient origen. From what I understand Ex Nihilio readings were invented sometime in the middle ages.

Different topic for another thread. And as far as the doctrine of the preexistence, it is not found in Christian writings until Tertullian and Origen, so that could be a later development as well. And ex nihilo, I believe, had already been around for centuries before the middle ages began. There was a great thread on this topic a little while ago, you should check it out. Very interesting.

And thanks, dacook, for your kind words. Although, if I truly am the best representative of EV thought you've ever encountered, that's pretty scary! <_<

Take care, everyone :unsure:

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David Bokovoy,

Neither the Old or New Testment reveal the preexistent human soul. Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God.

- Psalm 139 does not equate the underworld with human origin. Gen 2:7 describes how man became a living soul, God formed and God breathed.

- Jeremiah 1:5 reveals that God has foreknowledge. Luke 1:15 reveals that prophets like Jeremiah and John the Baptist are fillled with the Holy Ghost, even from their mother's womb.

- Job 38:7 is describing the spiritual creatures called angels. Angles do not became mortal men.

- Psalms 82 does not support preexistent human soul, it does support a heavenly assembly.

- JOhn 9:3 does not support preexistent human soul, his blindness was not a result of preexistence.

- Gen 2:1 is not reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence ... host are angels, angels do not become mortal men.

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Different topic for another thread. And as far as the doctrine of the preexistence, it is not found in Christian writings until Tertullian and Origen, so that could be a later development as well. And ex nihilo, I believe, had already been around for centuries before the middle ages began. There was a great thread on this topic a little while ago, you should check it out. Very interesting.

I think ex nihilo is relevant to the the pre-existence question. If Ex Nihilo is false then we have always existed in some material form or another and it is game over for those who don't believe in any form of pre-existence. There would still be debate and speculation over what the conditions in the pre-existence were, howver.

I agree with you about Tertullian's position. He ripped another Christian named Hermogenes's (sp?) arguments to shreds on the matter. Origen, is another story, but I would say that he did not personally believe in creation ex nihilo. Call it the Greek philosophy getting to him. Further reading is available on the Keith Norman and Blake Ostler articles elsewhere on the site if people are interested.

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I think ex nihilo is relevant to the the pre-existence question. If Ex Nihilo is false then we have always existed in some material form or another and it is game over for those who don't believe in any form of pre-existence. There would still be debate and speculation over what the conditions in the pre-existence were, howver.

It could be relevant, but even if ex nihilo is false, then it is quite possible that God simply "organizes" the spirit at conception/birth/whatever. Not necessarily a preexistence in the LDS sense.

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At the expense of feeding crackers to the parrot...

Neither the Old or New Testment reveal the preexistent human soul. Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God.

Every human soul is immortal. It infinitly existed. and will infinitly exist.

- Psalm 139 does not equate the underworld with human origin. Gen 2:7 describes how man became a living soul, God formed and God breathed.

And Gods "breath" is eternal. It always existed and it always will exist.

- Jeremiah 1:5 reveals that God has foreknowledge. Luke 1:15 reveals that prophets like Jeremiah and John the Baptist are fillled with the Holy Ghost, even from their mother's womb.

Absolutly God has forknowledge. But ordinations come by the laying on of hands.

- Job 38:7 is describing the spiritual creatures called angels. Angles do not became mortal men.

Hmmm... sounds to me like the Scripture is talking about "sons of God". Are not humans... "sons of god"?

- Psalms 82 does not support preexistent human soul, it does support a heavenly assembly.

Heavenly Assembly of... "gods"... hey I thought there was only one?!

- JOhn 9:3 does not support preexistent human soul, his blindness was not a result of preexistence.

Correction... His blindness was not a result of sin that he commited prior to encarnation. Thus demonstrating that he was could sin prior to even being a twinkle in his mothers eye.

- Gen 2:1 is not reference to the doctrine of the pre-mortal existence ... host are angels, angels do not become mortal men.

Can some one slap this machine on the side... its skipping again.

:P

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Zakuska,

Gen 2:7 reveals that that the soul did not "infinitly existed" ... became a living soul. Just because God' breath is eternal does not mean that the soul has pre-existence. Jeremiah is speaks of being "ordained" a prophet, John the Baptist was ordained a prophet because he was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb. Both men and angels are "sons of God" because they are created by God, but angels do not become mortal men. A heavenly assembly consist of angels not angels who become mortal men. Jesus clearly states his blindness was not a a result of sin.

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Hello Rhino,

People (as in humans) or angels? It's not really clear from the quote from Kugel.

I will not misrepresent Kugel. He does not say that humans are the saba' or host mentioned in Gen 2:1. Only that the "host" refers to the creation of the divine council.

A general tendency does appear within the Old Testament towards portraying human beings as inclusive members of the divine assembly. This tradition is quite clearly established.

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