377 replies to this topic

[Benji]

Many of you may be interested to know that there is currently a film being made about the worst act of domestic terrorism to occur on US soil until the Oklahoma city bombing.  I am referring to the Mountain Meadows Massacre which happened in September of 1857 in Southern Utah.  Considering the magnitude of this event, it is very interesting how little attention it has gotten historically.  My question here is who was really responsible for this atrocity?  Consider the following sermon from Mormon prophet Brigham Young which was given only 7 months prior to the massacre:

"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it..." (Sermon by Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pp. 219-220)

Of course I'm sure many will claim that this was not "offical church docrtine" either but that didn't prevent the murder of over 100 people which at least one Mormon (adopted son of Brigham Young, John D. Lee) was convicted of and sentenced to death for.

It's interesting that this information is considered "anti-mormon" despite the fact that everything I have presented is merely the words of Mormon leaders, some of whom are considered prophets of God.

[Dunamis]

Benji,  I do not see any intent from you to have a discussion.    I am not clear on what you are calling "anti-Mormon" but to use a quote that you claim is from the Journal of Discourses and call it anti-Mormon is ridiculous and has no purpose beyond provocation.  

If you do not become responsive you are going to be put on the queue.   You will be blocked from beginning new threads until you show you are capable of carrying on a dialogue in the threads you have already begun.

[charity]

Wow, benji, I was so underwhelmed.  This shocking new story (only around for148 years or so!), with "everything I have presented is merely the words of Mormon leaders, some of whom are considered prophets of God."

Where are the words of multiple leaders, and multiple prophets?   Everything you have presented is one tiny piece of a sermon by one man.

Sorry Benji. You don't do your homework.  I won't be visiting any of your topics again. I have a life.  And if all you have to do is start multiple  "ooh, shock, why didn't you Mormons know all this bad stuff?" threads, it appears that you need a life which will give you something constructive to do, instead of merely trying to tear down all the time.

[Benji]

Dunamis,

I was referring to the fact that several people have accused my information as being "Anti-Mormon" when it is merely the words of Mormon leaders.  The purpose of this thread is to have a dialogue about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and who was ultimately responsible for it.  As for other threads, I have been carrying out dialogue on several.

Benji

Edited by Benji, 05 September 2005 - 11:54 PM.

[Dunamis]

You need to read our board policy,  Benji.   Slapping up disembodied quotes and repeating your negative feelings is not considered to be a discussion on this board.

[Benji]

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Wow, benji, I was so underwhelmed. This shocking new story (only around for148 years or so!), with "everything I have presented is merely the words of Mormon leaders, some of whom are considered prophets of God."

Where are the words of multiple leaders, and multiple prophets? Everything you have presented is one tiny piece of a sermon by one man.

Sorry Benji. You don't do your homework. I won't be visiting any of your topics again. I have a life. And if all you have to do is start multiple "ooh, shock, why didn't you Mormons know all this bad stuff?" threads, it appears that you need a life which will give you something constructive to do, instead of merely trying to tear down all the time.

Charity,

You may be familiar with the massacre but it is largely unknown.  As for the words of multiple leaders, I have quoted Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Wilford Woodruff.

Benji

[Dunamis]

Benji, on Sep 6 2005, 12:03 AM, said:

You may be familiar with the massacre but it is largely unknown.

You are on an LDS board.  It is well-known here.   If you have a point make it.

[Benji]

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You need to read our board policy, Benji. Slapping up disembodied quotes and repeating your negative feelings is not considered to be a discussion on this board.

Well, I apologize if you are offended by my perspective.  As someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, my goal is to raise issues that I was never taught growing up and discuss them.

Benji

[Benji]

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You are on an LDS board. It is well-known here. If you have a point make it.

My point is that the sermon Brigham Young preached 7 months prior to the massacre encourages the spilling of blood.

Benji

[charity]

Benji, check your post.  You only quote Brigham Young.  Do you read your own posts? I always preview posts before I add reply.

[Dunamis]

Benji, on Sep 6 2005, 12:06 AM, said:

Well, I apologize if you are offended by my perspective.

This is the kind of non-response that has no purpose other than to provoke.  It certainly does not foster any kind of discussion.

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As someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, my goal is to raise issues that I was never taught growing up and discuss them.

You have chosen a board that probably has some of the best informed and educated Mormons and nonMormons around.  If you are under the impression the inhabitants do not know these things and most if not all of the literature about them you are going to have a very difficult time here.

[Benji]

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Benji, check your post. You only quote Brigham Young. Do you read your own posts? I always preview posts before I add reply.

Charity,

Do a search for "all posts by this member" on my profile and you will see that I have quoted all of those men in various posts.

Benji

[Dunamis]

Benji, on Sep 6 2005, 12:08 AM, said:

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You are on an LDS board. It is well-known here. If you have a point make it.

My point is that the sermon Brigham Young preached 7 months prior to the massacre encourages the spilling of blood.

That is quite possible.   Is that it?

[Benji]

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That is quite possible. Is that it?

Well, I would like to have a dialogue about it and see what others think.

Benji


Moderator:   A dialogue about what people think?   The debate usually comes down to who was responsible.  Is that what you are getting at?  If so you will need to provide documentation and respond to those who also provide data.  It takes one post to say what you "think".   That is not a discussion.  

[Platypus Man]

Benjii, this was already discussed a few days ago HERE

Hopefull it will answer your question.

[Benji]

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Moderator: A dialogue about what people think? The debate usually comes down to who was responsible. Is that what you are getting at? If so you will need to provide documentation and respond to those who also provide data. It takes one post to say what you "think". That is not a discussion.

My documentation is the sermon from Brigham that I cited which supports my view that he was ultimately responsible.  I would like to know if others agree or disagree and to respond with their views on who was repsonsible and why.

Benji

[charity]

benji wrote: "Do a search for "all posts by this member" on my profile and you will see that I have quoted all of those men in various posts."

What a crock. You should post on this thread, anything that is pertinent to this topic.  I am not going to go back and read everything you have ever posted to try to tease out something you might have thought applied to this topic.  In your topic statement, you quoted one person, and only a few words from a very long sermon.  Then you said ALL the evidence from multiple persons.  I said I wasn't going to read any more posts from you.  But then I wanted to see what Dunamis was saying.  You have added nothing.  Sayonara.

[urroner]

This seems to be the type of thread where somebody makes an accusation and provides very little if any evidence to support the accusation, but this person demands that eveybody else do all the work and provide all the evidence.

It's the old "I don't have to demonstrate that you are wrong, but you have to demonstrate that you are right" routine.  This is covered in great detail in the second chapter of the Anti-Mormon Field Manual.

What else has been done in this thread is to take piece of information that has been discussed to death, but present it in such a way to make it seem that this piece of information has been hidden by the Church.

Edited by urroner, 06 September 2005 - 06:46 AM.

[hondo]

I confess I was responsible.

[Meta]

Benji, on Sep 5 2005, 11:37 PM, said:

...about the worst act of domestic terrorism to occur on US soil until the Oklahoma city bombing...

This is a joke.  Why not look up Haun's Mill, Far West, Indepenance and Nauvoo for times when many men woman and children were not only murdered, but tortured and raped.  Why not look up the 'extermination order', which was an order:

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signed by Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27, 1838, that stated, "The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State."

Wow, those mormons (even the woman and children as the order doesn't discriminate) were either to leave or murdered LEGALLY on sight.  Yes, my friend, that was the US government in action.  But forget that, those pesky mormons killed all them people in the mountain meadows and it was the worst act of terrorism until the oklahoma city bomb!!!