Brigham Young and extreme racism

[koakaipo]

ps, AKS-I think you make a good point about that we messed up as a church. I feel we did, we have things to reconcile and to relieve basically. As one popular saying goes, racism is the original sin of WEstern Christianity, and I think that this is something to deal with as a Mormon.

Also, I'm not sure what your idea of a prophet is either. If the only models we have are from the Bible, we get a clear picture of very human people. They can be inspired and on fire, and there are times they are petty and angry and fustrated. I always personally loved the notion of Elisha getting mad at some young children for making fun of his bald shiner and cursing them so that two she bears come out of the woods to eat them up-42 in all!

How we look at the biblical passages of course matters, whether we take all things literally or not. But I think at least in Mormonism, prophets as we process them tend to have a very grounded position in this church, a very functional position that deals with day to day affairs, as oppossed to sitting on a mountain and communing with God in isolation. Basically unless the prophet explains something as a direct revelation, we do not have to assume he was divinely inspired by everything he says or believes.

[AKS]

You are raving.

Because you know nothing of revelation or the holy apostleship, you ignorantly assume that a prophet must receive some kind of instantaneous and total enlightenment along with his calling.

If you were prepared to even consider any source of information to be more authoritative than your own vast prejudices, you would quickly learn that you are completely wrong in this assumption.

Well you just said a mouthful of nothing. I reject any "prophet" that would teach racism. I reject any religion that would teach (ever) that a race of people are chosen over another. It really is that simple.

[Tarski]

the fact that he made a few comments with racist undertones should not hurt your faith.

I certainly disagree. I think that this kind of idea could not come from a true prophet. No one with dialog with God could harbor such ignorant feelings. I'm sure someone will point to some passage in a text thousands of years old (and many times translated) to prove me wrong. No way. Your church withheld the blessings of religion to an entire group of people based on ill-concieved social influences. Period. BY was no more a prophet than I.

You are raving.

Because you know nothing of revelation or the holy apostleship, you ignorantly assume that a prophet must receive some kind of instantaneous and total enlightenment along with his calling.

If you were prepared to even consider any source of information to be more authoritative than your own vast prejudices, you would quickly learn that you are completely wrong in this assumption.

Someone who knows as little as you do really needs to cultivate a little more humility.

Tarski wrote:

Exactly. Simple isn't it.

When something is so simple it requires no thought or comprehension, then it might be just a little bit too simple.

Another question might be, was he Christ-like or a rather dictator bully?

Or to put it another way, who was the real Brigham: the dictator of anti-Mormon propaganda, or the leader who stayed behind to put out the campfires after a church picnic?

Regards,

Pahoran

Of course, complexifying something simple is an age old technique of obfuscation.

Perhaps you have lower expectations than I concerning what a prophet of God should be like. Having been in direct contact with the almighty God of love should produce a better perpective on humanity. Don't you think he should he been able to look with the eyes of Christ? We are talking about something really basic here. All the rituals, temples and baptisms are all meaningless without the basic Christ-like insights the preclude racism.

[koakaipo]

AKS-are you not a person of faith? If so, I understand your view-I know people who believe that organized religion is too "damaged" of goods. But I do think someone who leans towards Christianity will have a very hard time finding a place within it that doesn't suffer from a racist legacy. Culture and religion alot of times are intertwined, and racism is really the cancer on Western society for the most in terms of how culture has intertwined with Christianity.

[juliann]

By the way, Tayran, the offer still stands. Find me a source where Luther claimed to be a prophet if you like. I will get my writings and discourses of Luther out, just in case, to look up a reference if you can provide one.

It is irrelevant what title you give someone if you are claiming they are inspired by God. You missed my point....if anyone is going to claim that their leaders were "inspired" they have the same problem they are trying to create by holding up the term "prophet" as if it means something drastically different than "inspired" to LDS.

If you read my posts, you will see that I neither condoned nor condemned either Martin Luther OR Brigham Young for their comments.  I was just stating that one needs to understand the times in which they lived.

I agree to a point. I would never go to a Lutheran message board and say anything disrespectful about Luther. Yet when it comes up here...I am still left with the stunning comparison of a statement from BY calling for a stop to abuse while Luther was responsible for advocating and inciting mass murder (and is held responsible by some historians for making way for Hitler). Yet...he will be called "inspired" by these same people who pile on Mormons. Astonishing!

(It cracks me up everytime some trusting guy comes from his favorite hate site and uses that particular quote from BY because what follows it is perhaps the most compelling piece of evidence against religion as a whole. There are much better quotes to show BY's less than appealing but typical ideas about race.)

[Pahoran]

Benji and extreme anti-Mormonism.

Benji,

you wrote:

I have read many similarly disturbing statements by Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses

No you haven't.

You've never laid eyes on a Journal of Discourses.

You can't know this and you are essentially calling someone a liar.

Actually I can.

It is a fact that the JoD consists of 26 volumes each of 367 small-print, double-column pages.

It is also a fact that the standard anti-Mormon prooftexts do not account for as much as 1% of this material.

Thus, when a poster cites a piece of material from the <1%, the odds are better than 100 to 1 that he got it from the <1% and not from the 100% where it would be much harder to find.

And when it happens that that poster is unquestionably an anti-Mormon, and who actually includes hate site URL's in his signature line, that overwhelming probability becomes established beyond reasonable doubt.

He got it from an anti-Mormon site. The verdict is in.

The whole JOD is online so what makes you think he hasn't read as much as you?

See above.

Of course, now it would be trivially easy for him to go cut-and-paste something that the anti's don't usually cite just to "prove" something or other; but the facts of the case are not in doubt.

Regards,

Pahoran

[juliann]

Well you just said a mouthful of nothing. I reject any "prophet" that would teach racism. I reject any religion that would teach (ever) that a race of people are chosen over another. It really is that simple.

How noble and enlightened of you. I am sure much of what you think is the cat's meow today will be scorned tomorrow. I assume with your enlightenment that you have nothing to do with tainted society, either. Live on a deserted island do you?

[juliann]

Perhaps you have lower expectations than I concerning what a prophet of God should be like. Having been in direct contact with the almighty God of love should produce a better perpective on humanity. Don't you think he should he been able to look with the eyes of Christ? We are talking about something really basic here. All the rituals, temples and baptisms are all meaningless without the basic Christ-like insights the preclude racism.

Gosh darn it, God screwed up. Poor guy couldn't even get one religion to cooperate. Perhaps another flood is in order with you in charge for the next go round?

[Boniface]

By the way, Tayran, the offer still stands.  Find me a source where Luther claimed to be a prophet if you like.  I will get my writings and discourses of Luther out, just in case, to look up a reference if you can provide one.

It is irrelevant what title you give someone if you are claiming they are inspired by God. You missed my point....if anyone is going to claim that their leaders were "inspired" they have the same problem they are trying to create by holding up the term "prophet" as if it means something drastically different than "inspired" to LDS.

If you read my posts, you will see that I neither condoned nor condemned either Martin Luther OR Brigham Young for their comments.

[AKS]

Gosh darn it, God screwed up. Poor guy couldn't even get one religion to cooperate. Perhaps another flood is in order with you in charge for the next go round?

This is not the most probable scenario. More likely, it was a scam from the start.

[juliann]

I have read many similarly disturbing statements by Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses

No you haven't.

You've never laid eyes on a Journal of Discourses.

You can't know this and you are essentially calling someone a liar.

The whole JOD is online so what makes you think he hasn't read as much as you?

[juliann]

Gosh darn it,  God screwed up.  Poor guy couldn't even get one religion to cooperate.  Perhaps another flood is in order with you in charge for the next go round?

This is not the most probable scenario. More likely, it was a scam from the start.

An even better reason for you to take over since you know what God would, should, could do while not one religion or culture has managed to even come close to your expectations.

[koakaipo]

hahah, Juliann you made me laugh with the point he would have found better quotes if he had the JoD(my father has the complete volumes, it takes up the whole shelf space).....there are some better whoppers, and the context of that quote does imply the responsibility that the notion of knowing one's place works both ways...in terms of stewardship and the like. That was the interesting thing with BY is his notion of stewardship and the notion that while blacks had their "place" that also implied not degrading them from that place as well as elevating them and how that worked in conjunction with white folks.

[AKS]

How noble and enlightened of you. I am sure much of what you think is the cat's meow today will be scorned tomorrow.

So you are still a racist? You believe you are of a more righteous race than others? You probably believe the absurdity of Africans actually being decedents of Cain? And why should I take anything you say seriously?

[hondo]

Two Points I would like to make. First all religion is revealed. It is up to us to learn the revelations and how revelation works. It is up to us to learn true doctrine which leads to exaltation. Second God chose the Israelites over everybody else. This does not mean he loves anyone less then those of Israel. We know through the New Testament that the Gospel went first to the Israelites then later to the Gentiles. Peter had a hard time dealing with this. He needed a revelation to confirm that a revelation was had. I wonder who believes that prophets or prophecy are infallible?

[koakaipo]

AKS-are you a religious person by chance? Still trying to understand where your perspective is coming from-not to use it for ammo either-I'm not like that.

[hondo]

correction prophets are fallible prophecy is not.

[AKS]

correction prophets are fallible prophecy is not.

Yes, the standard "dont listen to everything he says".

[koakaipo]

AKS-would you feel more comfortable if our standards was "listen to everything he says?" Would that really be a better option? I would think you'd find that fanatical.

I think the fact that unless a prophet proclaims something as divine revelation, we see everything else as counsel. From there we discern what is best for ourselves personally.

[Tarski]

I have read many similarly disturbing statements by Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses

No you haven't.

You've never laid eyes on a Journal of Discourses.

You can't know this and you are essentially calling someone a liar.

The whole JOD is online so what makes you think he hasn't read as much as you?

Tarski, no one in their right mind would use that particular lecture from BY if they had read the Jod. There are more icky sounding quotes than that and within a couple of paragraphs BY is calling for a curse on the white race if they don't stop abusing the "negro". The minute you see that quote you know it has come from a hate site who also knows their reader will not be reading the JoD.

[Pahoran]

Of course, complexifying something simple is an age old technique of obfuscation.

While over-simplifying something complex is an age-old technique of demagoguery. All the cheapest demagogues use it.

Perhaps you have lower expectations than I concerning what a prophet of God should be like.

No.

Just realistic ones. Expectations based upon scripture, not my own 21st-century prejudices.

The irony is that your own prejudices are no smaller than Brigham's; they differ only (1) in the direction they go, and (2) by how much more easy it is for you to get better information than it was for him.

Having been in direct contact with the almighty God of love should produce a better perpective on humanity. Don't you think he should he been able to look with the eyes of Christ? We are talking about something really basic here. All the rituals, temples and baptisms are all meaningless without the basic Christ-like insights the preclude racism.

Well here's the scoop, Tarski: Koakaipo's white guilt notwithstanding, everybody is racist, not just the Christian West.

And those who are overweeningly proud of not being racist are just as likely to be bigoted on some other topic.

Ideology, for example; or perhaps religion.

Regards,

Pahoran

[hondo]

What about our part on hearing a prophet? Could we say we reject everything a prophet says and still be approved of God? rather than change the revelations to fit our idea why don't we change our selves to fit God's idea of us and what we shal become?

[koakaipo]

Koakaipo is not white;nor do I bother with guilt I deal with what can be done to do things better in the future. I think our past helps us figure out how to do things better in the future-that's a valuable gift that our ancestors give us, even if the lessons are a little sad at times. I don't know how you didn't pick up on my "WEstern Christianity's original sin is racism" showing how it's an insidious part of society and religion within a western setting.

And nothing's wrong with saying we as a church could do better, when we understand the lessons of the past. I don't understand how this deals with guilt, but trying to do right by people that may have been marginalized in the past. Seeking reconciliation is something all our moms taught us with our siblings-it's no different in a religious setting. There's no shame in telling fellow brothers and sisters we will do better, as we have in the last couple decades in fact.

[Benji]

Young's racist beliefs were taught for many years in the Mormon church as standard doctrine. Consider the following from Mormon Doctrine published in 1966:

"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned

[AKS]

Pahoran, get that egg off of your smug face yet?

Not everyone is racist, only the ignorant. I have trouble believing that God would call ignorant people to recieve his revelation. This is just my opinion of course.