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redman

What if you want the church to be true,

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If it wasn't true, how would you know? You seem to have set up a system where you don't have to deal with knowledge and truth but rather on what you feel

Well, first of all, to me, the gospel is truth and knowledge, so I do believe I'm dealing with them. But you are correct in that my "system" as you call it, is based on how I feel. I fell away from the church for years, I investigated many other religions, but they never felt right, I never felt the spirit or the sense of peace I felt while a member of the LDS faith. Although, I was looking for answers elsewhere, my faith never allowed me to deny the gospel because my heart knew it to be true.

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Well, first of all, to me, the gospel is truth and knowledge, so I do believe I'm dealing with them. But you are correct in that my "system" as you call it, is based on how I feel. I fell away from the church for years, I investigated many other religions, but they never felt right, I never felt the spirit or the sense of peace I felt while a member of the LDS faith. Although, I was looking for answers elsewhere, my faith never allowed me to deny the gospel because my heart knew it to be true.

That's great. I'm happy for you. I just have a problem with your prescribing your own way of finding truth for everyone else. We are all different, and not everyone is capable of having the same kind of belief system you do.

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That's great. I'm happy for you. I just have a problem with your prescribing your own way of finding truth for everyone else

I wasn't aware that there was something wrong with sharing your own personal experiences with others. This is what I have found, through my own personal experience, perhaps my view will help someone, maybe it won't, regardless, I have every right to share it.

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I wasn't aware that there was something wrong with sharing your own personal experiences with others. This is what I have found, through my own personal experience, perhaps my view will help someone, maybe it won't, regardless, I have every right to share it.

If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. You just sounded to me like you were telling redman what he was doing wrong. That's different from sharing your own experience.

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If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. You just sounded to me like you were telling redman what he was doing wrong. That's different from sharing your own experience

I was telling him why I felt he has had a problem with his faith. I guess I assumed it went without saying that anything I said was my own opinion, as I quoted nothing and no one. I'll just add a disclaimer that for future reference, unless I'm quoting scriptures or prophets, anything I say is only my opinion, based upon my own experience, and should be taken as such.

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dimbulb wrote:

That's great. I'm happy for you. I just have a problem with your prescribing your own way of finding truth for everyone else. We are all different, and not everyone is capable of having the same kind of belief system you do.

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Ephesians 4:5

Contrary to popular opionion, all roads do not lead to Rome . . . figuratively speaking. :P

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Contrary to popular opionion, all roads do not lead to Rome . . . figuratively speaking.

I meant that not everyone is capable of having faith that has no basis in reason. I know people who have a simple, untroubled faith. I'm not one of them.

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Do you wish you were?

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Do you wish you were?

Not really, no. I figure that maybe I have some things I have to learn, and God has chosen this way of teaching me.

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Redmon,

... I too left the church, many years ago. my wife stayed active and I was generally a thorn in her side throughout our married life. We could not discuss church things at all with out it becoming an argument. So, we stopped talking about church. She raised our kids in the Church and our two boys are active members, TBM's. They are like their mother and will believe even if it does not make any logical sence. My daughter is more like me and thinks in scientific terms and logic is important to her belief structure as it is in mine.

... My wife and I have been married 35 years. She is sealed to another man to whom she does not want to be sealed but the church won't let her have a temple cancellation. This was one of our biggest bones on contention in our marriage and was one of the reasons I left the church. But we love each other dearly despite our religious beliefs.

... My wife has been very active in the church and has been a temple worker for the last 2 years. I have for the most part let her do what ever she wanted in the church. I know she puts my name in the prayer circle every time she is at the temple. Who knows maybe it will pay off for her.

... I will never be able to believe "the church is true". There are just too many things that are no ware near being logical for me to be able to say I believe. I have made a study of the temple rituals and know as much as she does. Probably more, because I am willing to look at all infomation and history not just thoughs things that support her beliefs. Anyway, it has been interesting.

... I have decided, that I will begin attending church with her again and go to church social events too. I am doing this because I love her and it will make her happy. However, I will speak my mind when asked or in meetings and not just be silent. I don't know how well I will be received by the leaders and the members. Since I know the history of the temple ordinances, the wording of the various laws and the Tokens, Signs, and Names. Yet, I have never covenented to keep them secret (i have never been through the temple). I am more free than TBM's to speak of these things. I will however, try to be respectful.

... I know she wants to have me go thru the endowment and for us to be sealed. But one thing I would never be able to do is say "I beleive this to be true", The best I would ever be able to do would be "It would be very nice if it were true".

...

If you are interested in my story... I have posted the letter I wrote the Bishop asking to be reinstated as a member, in the welcome new member forum.

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wow mocnarf it must be really hard to watch your kids grow up believing something you believe is not true. this is an issue my girlfriend and i talk about vety much (she is lds and im not but she doesnt believe anymore) we have decided to let our kids (when they arrive) to make their own search for god without imposing anything....and for the ones who may react with the usual "moral stuff" : yes they will be taught moral values without putting "god" in the middle.

i just find this :

My wife and I have been married 35 years. She is sealed to another man to whom she does not want to be sealed but the church won't let her have a temple cancellation.
outrageous and one more proof (to me at least) that its not a god guided church

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Pezp,

Ya, the temple sealing thing was the hardest thing for me to stomach. It almost lead to our divorse. What I especially resented was the fact no one told me before we were married. The her sealing to another man was still active and that my children with her would be considered sealed to her X. Ya, that's tough, it affect the way I treated my children (or should I say his children by proxy) when they were young.

Oh, well they are all grown adults now so they can choose for themself.

...

One thing she has been told is that after she dies if she does not want to stay sealed to her X it would then be possible to have her sealing transfered to another man in the celestial kingdom. That was told to her by her temple president. Doesn't make sense to me but who knows.

...

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Doesn't make sense to me but who knows.

...

That's the "clincher" with half the gospel .... then comes the guidance to 'just have more faith and don't worry about what doesn't make sense.'

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I read a lot of anti-Mormon material. I do not encourage people just to have faith, or accept everything that doesn't make sense. But honestly more makes sense in Restoration belief belief, history, and practice than doesn't make sense.

I am Community of Christ which rejects the need for Temple sealings.

The only complaint I had about the LDS while LDS that I always felt like a failure as an LDS person. I have many unhappy memories of my LDS experiences. I had failed LDS callings that effected my self-esteem. I found the LDS Church a very lonely place for me. And in the last few years of my inactivity I came down with a chronic illness called Multiple Sclerosis. While not fatal it does cause great fatigue, and varying degrees of disability depending on how lucky, or unlucky the person is. I decided I wasn't heathy enough to try the LDS Church again. Plus my experiences as an LDS social misfit gave me other reasons to leave.

I work two hours a day for to five days a week. I use a cain when not at work. At work I use a walker, and a basket I rigged in the center to carry stuff in. I do some cleaning of equipment in a plastics moldings room in a water filter factory.

On Sundays my congregation dresses casually which helps me. I dress nice but can wear my street clothes.

Most of the evangelical issues with LDS, history, doctrine, or practice did not matter to me.

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Dale, I am sorry if you were ever given to feel that the efforts you expended were "not enough." And I more sorry if you feel your spiritual home is with the LDS and you are not healthy enough to join them. I know many LDS who have various chronic illnesses which limit their participation. They are accepted and are appreciated for what they can do.

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I have an interesting story to tell. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I don't know how relevent or timely it is, but it's an interesting thing I'd like to contribute.

I would consider myself a "TBM," or "True Believing Mormon," but that wasn't always the case. I think everyone in the church goes through a cycle of strong-weak testimony, and I had a series of very interesting experiences when I was at a low point.

Right before my mission, I went through a period of time when I wasn't sure how strong my testimony was and I had questions that bothered me. I didn't have answers to them and they caused the gospel to stop making sense to me. It was about three months before I reported to the MTC and all of a sudden all of these questions rushed onto me very, very fast. Polygamy. Blacks and the Priesthood. Evolution. Kinderhook plates. Zelph mound. Mountain Meadow's Massacre. It was pretty tough for me, and for a while I didn't know exactly what I believed. It was so bad that I even told my father that I didn't think I had a testimony and wasn't sure if I'd stay with the church.

I remember one night where I had a very particular experience. I was sitting in my chair, reading something and thinking about the unanswered questions that were running through my mind, and all of a sudden, I felt completely overpowered by something. It was the strangest thing. It was very similar to what Joseph Smith described in JSH 1:15-16:

...immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction...I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction

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I have an interesting story to tell. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I don't know how relevent or timely it is, but it's an interesting thing I'd like to contribute.

I would consider myself a "TBM," or "True Believing Mormon," but that wasn't always the case. I think everyone in the church goes through a cycle of strong-weak testimony, and I had a series of very interesting experiences when I was at a low point.

Right before my mission, I went through a period of time when I wasn't sure how strong my testimony was and I had questions that bothered me. I didn't have answers to them and they caused the gospel to stop making sense to me. It was about three months before I reported to the MTC and all of a sudden all of these questions rushed onto me very, very fast. Polygamy. Blacks and the Priesthood. Evolution. Kinderhook plates. Zelph mound. Mountain Meadow's Massacre. It was pretty tough for me, and for a while I didn't know exactly what I believed. It was so bad that I even told my father that I didn't think I had a testimony and wasn't sure if I'd stay with the church.

I remember one night where I had a very particular experience. I was sitting in my chair, reading something and thinking about the unanswered questions that were running through my mind, and all of a sudden, I felt completely overpowered by something. It was the strangest thing. It was very similar to what Joseph Smith described in JSH 1:15-16:

...immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction...I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction

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Thank you, light. There have been people on the board, this topic included, who think that faith is something that should hit them on the head and make them believe. I hope they all read and understand what you have said.

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Faith without reason is not only dead, but it's dangerous

You keep doing an all or nothing thing here. I never implied all faith no reason, all belief, no knowledge, only that in the end, if your beliefs aren't based in faith, they are much more easily shaken. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well. My husband, for example, likes to read all the latest findings, looking to "prove" his faith is true. However, as soon as something springs up, take DNA evidence for instance, his beliefs are shaken to the core. I, however, am not at all troubled by DNA evidences, or any other evidences, because my faith has been based on more than what I can prove or find in books, it's based on personal revelation, and no scientific studies are going to disprove that.

Allow me to point out one of the problems here. You seem to say that the issue is with people basing their beliefs on "facts", but in reality, you have only showed that you believe divine revelation through feelings to be more reliable evidence. You are not coming to your conclusions of truth with any process any different than the rest of us; you are just finding evidence in different places. Now, if you would like to give us some reason to believe that revelation feelings are better evidence than, say logic, I would be happy to hear it. You could contrast science as well, but it is not very reliable as evience goes.

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If it wasn't true, how would you know? You seem to have set up a system where you don't have to deal with knowledge and truth but rather on what you feel

Well, first of all, to me, the gospel is truth and knowledge, so I do believe I'm dealing with them

Well, that's a convenient answer. "I believe this because it's true!" Wow. I'm so glad I heard that.

, I investigated many other religions, but they never felt right, I never felt the spirit or the sense of peace I felt while a member of the LDS faith.

And a sense of peace is, of course, the most important matter in the determination of truth. I mean, how could anyone think that truth would not be accompanied by a feeling of peace? :P

Although, I was looking for answers elsewhere, my faith never allowed me to deny the gospel because my heart knew it to be true.

Your heart pumps blood.

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Hello, randy. Yes, we believe that a sense of peace is a sign of truth. The Holy Ghost is called the Comforter. But then you knew that, I think.

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