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About cacheman

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    Just some guy who wonders about stuff

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  1. I thought it was his wife, Camille. I don't recall any mention of Spencer Kimball living in the colonies. It's been a while though, so maybe I'm missing something.
  2. What do you mean by 'most.... mock those who do not behave in a dissolute manner'? That seems so counter to what I've experienced. I'm curious as to how you've come to this conclusion. -cacheman
  3. cacheman


    I think it's great that the LDS church promotes healthy living, but they might want to update parts of their guide. The concept of protein combining was demonstrated to be unnecessary about 30 years ago. They could also mention complete protein plants other than soy..... like quinoa, buckwheat, chia, cannabis, and others.
  4. cacheman


    When I was a believing member of the church, I had an experience that led me to re-evaluate what I thought the scriptures said. It was D&C 49 that came to my mind while in the process of killing an animal for food. The section talks about how it is wrong to mandate the abstention of meat, but then ended with Jesus saying something like 'woe unto those who sheddeth blood who hath no need' (I might have garbled the actual quote). It occurred to me that I didn't need to eat meat. I've carried that thought with me over the years and have tested it in my life. I haven't needed animal products for many years, and so why would I purposefully kill, or cause to be killed, an animal. Plants on the other hand must be consumed in order for us just to survive. If a need for animal products was there, then I would consume animal products. I understand that others interpret that scripture differently than I did. I just wanted to give you the personal perspective that I had when I was LDS. -cacheman
  5. That sounds like an interesting childhood. It would be difficult for an introvert like myself to grow up in that culture... constantly under suspicion. But, maybe the long-term familiarity would have modified my introverted nature. In many ways I feel fortunate to have lived in a number of different cultures growing up.... in and outside of the U.S.. However, moving around every few years, and rarely seeing any extended family probably contributed to my introversion and lack of closeness with most people. I'm perfectly comfortable being a face in the crowd in a large unfamiliar crowded city, but I am uncomfortable around groups where we know each other (ie. Church, school, etc.). The irony is that I've followed a very public career path which puts me in those situations daily.... often where I'm the center of afternoon. So in my private life, I need seclusion to recover from the day's over-socialization. I don't share where or how I live with any of my colleagues, and only a very few close friends. When I go home at the end of the day, it's like going to another world where I can recharge. I think it would be very interesting to see someone study potential links between personality, upbringing, and culture as they relate to religious disaffection.... particularly in close knit religious communities like are found in Mormonism. I suspect wee would see some interesting trends. Recognizing these potential links could help increase understanding and empathy between current and former members of religious groups.
  6. This is interesting. I think that the level of comfort one feels in a church community may influence the degree of effort one makes in devising whether to leave or stay when faced with conflicting beliefs. I'm just the opposite of how you described yourself, in that I'm really uncomfortable with having my personal space violated. I share this trait with my mother and one of my siblings. At the time that I left the church, we lived in a small rural town in Utah, where many or most of the people were like you.... having no sense of personal space. I imagine that the shared faith community and extensive familial ties in the town contributed to this. There was a social aspect to the community that was foreign to me. When my religious/ethical beliefs became increasingly different than my faith community, it wasn't a difficult decision for me to move on.....I didn't share the same type of social relationships that most had. Did you happen to grow up in a rural Utah town where there were a lot of shared religious and familial connections? -cacheman
  7. The story you posted is touching, and sounds likely that the decisions were in the best long-term interest of the child. However, every scenario is unique. My wife was an unwed pregnant 15 year old and gave birth to our son at 16. At this point in my life, I can't imagine not having him in our life. We were able to raise him in a stable two parent household, and I believe that this scenario turned out to be in his best interest. On the other hand, my sister was given up for adoption by her birth mother, and was subsequently adopted by my parents. I believe the decisions made by all parties in that scenario worked out in the interest if the child as well. I think that decisions regarding the future of their children are profoundly difficult for mothers to make. There is no real way of knowing outcomes in advance, but my hope is that these types of decisions are made thoughtfully, taking into account all the different factors, first and foremost being the child's best interests.
  8. Very true. There are a number of native grape species in north America. That's why I'm perplexed with Sorenson's claim (repeated by the Maxwell Institute, Fairmormon, Bom Central, etc.) His willingness to extrapolate well beyond the evidence doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his methodology.
  9. I'm not familiar with the bulk of John Sorenson's work...... most of it is outside my areas of interest. However, I am a wild edible plant enthusiast, and was intrigued when I saw his claim that Vitis vinifera seeds, dated to the late pre-classic era, were found in Chiapas. In Mormon's Codes he says: "Our understanding of wine in ancient Mesoamerica was enhanced 30 years ago when Martínez M. excavated a site of Late Pre-Classic date (first centuries BC and AD) beside the Grijalva River in Chiapas (the location that is taken here to be the land of Zarahemla). There he carefully recovered and studied all traces of plant remains. He found seeds of Vitis vinifera, the wine grape known in Europe, from which he concluded that the fruit had been used to manufacture wine equivalent to that of the Old World." If true, this would be a big deal, so I looked into it further. In an earlier paper, co-authored with Johannessen, and to an academic, non-LDS audience, he lacked the certainty that is displayed in Mormon's Codex (John L. Sorenson and Carl L. Johannessen, “Scientific Evidence for Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Voyages” Sino-Platonic Papers, 133 (April 2004)). In this paper, Vitis vinifera is listed as one of the species in which evidence existed, but was not definitive. When reading the Vitis section in that paper, it appears clear why he lacked certainty. From his paper: "Martínez M. 1978, 14, 21. The site of his study is a few miles upstream from Santa Rosa, near Laguna Francesa, on the south bank of the Grijalva River, southern Mexico. He worked primarily on the contents of two bottle-shaped cavities (chultuns) filled with trash. Dated to the Proto-Classic period (200 BC to AD 200), i.e., the second half of Chiapas V through VII (ceramic periods). He used flotation to extract seed from excavated material. On 105ff is Cuadro No. 13, classification of vegetal remains. “Vitis, wild, called bejuco de agua (vid).” Under “Estimulantes” he gives: “Vitis. silvestre (wild), vino, fruto, fermentado ({assumed} fermented).” 121. Cites Miranda 1975–1976, I, 175–6, as reporting from field survey in Chiapas three species: V. bouraeana, or watervine; V. tiliifolia, also called watervine; and V. vinifera, or ‘vid europea.’ He also mentions V. labrusca, or ‘vid americana,’ leaving it unclear if he considered this a fourth species of grape. A rather good quality wine can be made from the juice (no species pinpointed). Vitis is wild and only slightly represented in our materials. 125. As indicated previously, utilizing the juice of the grape, pressed and fermented, he says that it is possible to produce a good quality wine. 176. Furthermore, the sap from the stem of the grape plant is fermented (today) to make a drink called ‘taberna.’" So, he's reporting that Martinez found seeds from a Vitis species called bejuco de agua. That commonly refers to Vitis tiliifolia, not V. vinifera. The V. sylvestre mentioned is actually not a proper taxonomical name, but has occasionally been used as a synonym for V. labrusca, a native north American wild grape. The only place where V. vinifera is mentioned in this passage is in the Miranda citation (which is a modern floristic survey post dating the known introduction of European grapes by centuries). It appears that he is really stretching to make the connection. From what I can tell, archaeobotanists and others who have cited the Martinez thesis, treat this as a description of wild grape. I'm not sure how Sorenson came to the conclusions that he did in the Sino-platonic paper. Then, in Mormon's Codex, he states it as fact. Did he re-read the thesis and uncover more evidence? It's difficult for me to believe that based on how he initially described his source (I would love to get a copy of the Martinez thesis, if anyone has it). I have to wonder how he came to the conclusion that V. vinifera was in Mexico in the late pre-classic period. This has me questioning his methodology, or at least his presentation of evidence.
  10. A few years back I filled out the paperwork to donate my body to a forensics body farm in my state. My panthiest leanings have contributed to my desire for a more natural recycling. In addition, they will pick up and transport my body free of charge, eliminating the financial stress around death for my wife and children. However, I'm also looking into the possibility of a natural (no coffin) burial in some woods on our farm, or being composted and used on the farm. At this point, my wife feels a little uneasy about the last option. It's nice to see that more options are being discussed again. There are a lot of us who have serous misgivings about burying embalmed bodies in sealed caskets.
  11. I typically use it in the mornings. I don't notice much stimulation from it, but simply a bit of added focus. Years ago I would occasionally have issues with hypoglycemia mid morning and ginseng appears to have helped control blood sugar. Keep in mind that I'm talking about American ginseng, not Asian ginseng. If your sleep troubles are anxiety related, you might want to check out magnolia bark teas. I like to combine magnolia bark with passionflower leaves to help with anxiety related sleep issues.
  12. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ginseng!
  13. I've had and enjoyed yerba mate, but my favorite of the American Ilex species is I. vomitoria (Yaupon). I like to lightly roast the leaves and then boil for 10-15 minutes. It tastes good (not bitter like tea) and provides mild stimulation and focus without any jitters. I wasn't familiar with the name chuchupate, but it looks like it's an alternate name for osha root which I enjoy as a remedy for gut issues. Since the vast majority of osha root is wild harvested, I now use lovage as a substitute. I am trying to establish a patch of osha here, but haven't had success yet. Another native (to my area) plant that I like as a tea is spicebush. Over the next couple months, I like to gather twigs and boil in maple water from tapped trees. Those on this thread that have mentioned enjoying allspice, ginger, and clove in their teas might like spicebush. It's a good, mildly sweet tea for cold and flu season.
  14. Hi Bluebell, It's not so much the label (I am, by definition, an apostate), but it's the character traits, moral failings, and satanic influence that the church attaches to the label. In the lessons about avoiding personal apostasy that were being taught around the time I left, descriptions of those who leave the church were all negative. There were no neutral or positive things mentioned. There was no indication that good, decent people could simply believe differently and choose a path that better reflects their personal beliefs. These types of lessons have the real ability to influence how family members, friends, ward members, etc. view those who leave. Lasting damage to relationships can be the result of this. It doesn't seem weird to me at all that someone might care about that particular label. -cacheman
  15. it's true that in modern western society that people are largely removed from animal agriculture in general and from the slaughtering and processing of meat products. I don't think it's coincidental that as societal involvement in agriculture has drastically declined, that meat consumption has significantly increased.
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