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About stemelbow

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    Creates Beasts Of The Earth

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  1. Divine Love Is Conditional

    This sounds far more appealing and reasonable. Thanks.
  2. Divine Love Is Conditional

    Thanks for saying as much, Jeanne.
  3. Divine Love Is Conditional

    if this is Church I'm happy to work my way out. if scripture is to be above my own dealings with God in defining how it should be, I don't want part in it. Honestly, this is not appealing to me in the least.
  4. Divine Love Is Conditional

    I'm not sure what to make of this pogi. But I'm glad to point out we certainly are coming at this from different angles. "you can't know the heart of man. I would resist judging others who seek God's love as being elitists" and " are the ones who find themselves in great and spacious building elevated above their brethren, pointing their fingers in elitist scorn and judgment." I don't know how I got condemned for knowing the heart of man, which I don't think I claimed, only to see you condemn a bunch of people based on your knowing their heart as they point their fingers of scorn, feeling themselves to be above the brethren, or whatever. I do find many of my fellow Church members pretending to know the heart of those who aren't Mormon claiming they are the ones who presume to be above the brethren pointing their fingers of scorn, while these members themselves often point their fingers of scorn at their family and friends who are, it seems most often suggested, below them. I don't wish to condemn anyone without knowing his/her heart, but I do wish to stay away from a spirit of pretending to be above another in God's eyes.
  5. Good points. One thing I hated about being on a mission was, we weren't about the people but about converts. We were moved from area to area in shorts amount of time trying our best to get people baptized. the frustration of the members was always our biggest obstacle. They didn't want people just coming, and getting baptized right away. I hated when my companions and others wanted to dismiss everyone who wasn't ready. My take is everyone should be baptized with any amount of desire. But the whole system and culture was broken. It was set up to get as many as possible, initially, but as soon as one was got, the whole program wasn't working and if it didnt' work it means they weren't ready. I think it's less about getting people ready, then having the system and culture of Church to be more amenable for others. A place that really works. It's not. Therefore the best thing now is to wait until people are ready. But then the Church just gets more exclusive, in my view, and less helpful. I hate to blame converts. I think the problem lies in the leadership, which directs and plays within the culture, it seems to me.
  6. Divine Love Is Conditional

    I'm probably alone here on this. I have no desire at all, as far as I've tried dig into myself to uncover it, to seek God's love. I figure he either loves me and cares about me or not. That's not to say I don't want to do good. I realize though, when I seek to do something good, it is never to win the love of God. It is normally because I want to love other people, and learn to love them, almost always. Other times it is to win praise from others perhaps. This idea that God's love is conditional doesn't resonate with me at all, even considering the whole of his talk. I don't get why Pres Nelson or any of them brethren want others to feel like they have to seek "higher levels of" God's love, as if members should see themselves as particularly special.
  7. Unfortunately, it's quite possible that humanitarian missions might be more productive in getting solid converts than the usual missionary work, but apparently we'd never know that. The scriptural mandate isn't about making missionaries follow the Church's current rules, policies and regulations for missionaries. It is about converting people. If the Church sent them out to work for others, we might see far more benefit, and a much more productive means to follow the scriptural mandate.
  8. over the years I've known many mormon boys in particular who didn't go on missions. Each one, as far as I recall, have claimed to have to learn to deal with the "judgmentalness" you claim doesn't exist. I suppose in each case they could have made up the judgmentalness and created this inferiority. But if it happens to them all, then one must wonder if that which they are making up is coming from somewhere. I find Pres Oaks words here to be opposed to scripture in a sense. If you have desires you are called. He seems to be saying it's not just a desire, but one must reach a certain level of desire, a level humans simply can't determine lest they get too judgmental. This to me is a mess. It's a Church I don't really resonate with.
  9. Ok. Radio Free Mormon did a podcast on this recently. Should be considered, I think. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/01/radio-free-mormon-23-dumbing-revelation/ He's trying to show that in recent years, perhaps moreso in the past, the claims of revelation are merely claims of doing things the same way non-revelation stuff is done, based on what current leaders have been saying. I think he does a fairly good job and will be trying to look deeper into it.
  10. Aren't we seeing the beginnings of forming an apologetic on this based on the initial reactions of the some of the posters here? I think we are. I think queues will continue to be taken by what the researchers have said already--that the whole of the JST didn't come from the Bible commentary, only certain elements seem to have been stolen from Clarke's work. And, I think the initial reaction to downplay Joseph Smith's translation efforts altogether--it wasn't all that important, never was considered scripture by him, never canonized or shouldn't have been. I'm surprised a bit by that. The JST is far more used as scripture, in an LDS context than say, the BOA, at least in my experience. I've been in many LDS taught classes wherein if they JST suggestion for a certain passage isn't read or considered people get pretty upset. To many LDS the JST is far more inspired than the very weak unreliable Bible, it seems to me.
  11. I doubt I'd convince you. I agree with you about his efforts in China. I don't know that it demonstrates anything near elitism. What I mean though is his addresses. Each time it feels to me he focuses on personal righteousness, being in the world and not of it, looking at things as if we are to be at a different level, another type than what those around us are. "They" are sinners whom we ought to not emulate. That's the type of stuff I get from him most. And I might be way off, or misunderstanding him. And perhaps elitism is not the most appropriate word to describe the issue I'm describing. We had President Oaks randomly show up to our ward a couple of years ago. I think I reported it here. It was much different. He didnt' go around shaking everyone's hand at all. I'm not holding that against him though. I'm just saying apparently he does it differently at different locations and times perhaps. He went up to the stand before the meeting started spoke briefly with the bishop and just sat observing us, watching as people came in, sat down and got ready for Sacrament. After sacrament was over he sneaked off, and I thought he had left. I was scheduled to teach the youth in the ward that day for Sunday School. I had a game of jeopardy planned. By the time I got into class the sister who taught opposite me took over and was teaching an ad hoc lesson, with Elder Oaks sitting in with the youth, to my surprise. I ended up sitting in the back and observing. I think she really wanted to impress him, or something. But she kept trying to defer to him at every turn, asking him to tell the kids something. He didn't seem to appreciate the approach much, but she did, at one point, refer to President Uchtdorf (at the time was President) as Elder Uchendorfer during the lesson in front of then Elder Oaks. I got a chuckle out of that, but he didn't correct her or say anything about her butchering the name. Elder Oaks really wanted to hear from the kids, I got the impression, so after a while he managed to get a couple of the kids to open up. He had a very old fashioned way of talking about the youth as if they lived in during the 50s or something. Fair enough. I don't know that I'm about to make a federal case about it. it might be too harsh a word for what my impression suggests anyway. I'll have to mull it over more.
  12. Thanks, Duncan. There are people that really strike me as interesting, extra thoughtful and nice. You are one. if you weren't so far away up in there in the North. I'd say let's meet, if possible. BTW, I learned that Joseph used a Bible commentary for his JST work: I'd start a thread about it for other's input, but they won't allow that type of normal activity from me, so I have to include it as an aside. http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296
  13. I don't really see anything new in this, but I will add as far as I can tell Pres nelson has been front and center in promoting building up yourself, to be stronger, more faithful to receive blessings. It doesn't sound like that will be much different. For me, I'm turned off by his approach. it feels to me to be, and has for a long time, an effort to really promote elitism and some self-aggrandizing which I realize has a strong presence in the Church. This may be another signal from God telling me "you don't belong, ding dong".
  14. New First Presidency

    Yes I see you are safely in the "they can't possibly lead me astray" camp, therefore you follow. Good for you.