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Nofear

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Everything posted by Nofear

  1. I believe that several of those defending the status quo are quite open to the possibility of women being ordained to priesthood office and holding priesthood keys. It's more of a question of what do we do about it? defend the status quo and the Brethren and assert that they are acting according to God's wishes on this revile the status quo and claim that the Brethren, even if well intentioned, are propagating an situation not pleasing to the Lord There is some subtlety in between. But both of the positions seem to be held by more than one of the posters in this thread. The point of my original post was to see if there were rational reasons one could give that would help another understand one's perspective (even if they didn't agree with it). Some motion in that direction, but far less than what I had hoped. Some useful discussion on aspects related to the primary question, and important ones at that, but the heart of the matter remains. Ah well.
  2. Completed the training. Seemed to pretty much what the BSA one did (a few minor differences) and more. It was generalized to both primary, young men, and young women. I don't see the LCR having been updated yet to report the protection training status of the members.
  3. Agreed. I guess some of the questions from some of the others is then why can't a sister be asked to preside at places not-traditionally associated with their presiding? An extreme example: a branch president and his counselors (if any) are absent. The elders quorum president/cy is absent. No high councilors. Can the branch relief society president be asked to preside? Or, should it go to the lone priest in the branch? What is the governing principle at play that would extend to more established and higher level functioning units? Get those principles clearly elaborated and that should help the conversation be more effective.
  4. Just to point out something. Women do preside at meetings. The Primary President presides at primary activities. The Relief Society president presides at Relief Society meetings. In most wards, the Laurel class president and the priest quorum president take turns presiding at combined meetings (the adult YM and/or YW presidents/presidencies do/should not act as if they preside). What then is different about Sacrament Meeting or a baptism (ward or mission level)? Well, one of the things seems to be that a priesthood ordinance is performed, one that requires keys (as some priesthood ordinances don't recall keys (from the Church)). How all of this enters the discussion. I'm not sure. But, I do appreciate the comments from both sides of the coin. It is useful.
  5. Since the Church will no longer be affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America, the youth protection training mandated there won't be required. I see this as basically the youth protection training that was required under scouting but expanded to include more parties. This expansion is a good thing.
  6. This post is a bit judgmental because I feel quite strongly about Heavenly Mother. So many, men and women, who cry and long for her are guilty of idolatry. They have imagined an "unknown God" and worship this creature of their own creation. She is not of our creation, but we of her creation. Through the Savior we can come to know her. Until the membership of the Church is ready is ready to worship her in the same spirit and truth in which we worship the Father, and not the idol, she will continue to be veiled except to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
  7. I suspect a few reasons: Heavenly Father and Mother are perfectly united. However, we mortals would put them in twain where no division exists. Much as children would ask one parent something and if they didn't like the response, they would go to the other parent to see if they might get a different answer. Our perfect Heavenly Parents have no such division. Her response to our prayers would be no different than his response to our prayers. She would be a stumbling block to many joining the Church. So, we continue in the habit and language that is at least modestly comfortable to those coming. This reason, however, is probably rapidly shrinking in relevance. There may be others that I don't know of. But what I do know is that her absence from public discourse is not some conspiracy of the patriarchy of the Brethren to withhold her from us. No man can come between me and my God/Heavenly Parents and they don't. I am quite content with the idea that our Omniscient Mother in Heaven hears my prayers just as the Father does. And that whatever response I get to my prayers can be thought of as being from either Parent. I still say, "Heavenly Father" in my prayers so as not to be a stumbling block to other members but I am under no idea but that both are aware of and responsive to my prayers. And if you desire to understand Heavenly Mother more, read John 14:9 and simply replace Father with Mother.
  8. I might quibble with the “as many” since there are so many more ways to act or think contrary to God's way than there are to act in harmony with his way. But, I quite agree that there are examples where mankind has acted in accordance with God's designs but came up with spurious justifications. This thread very likely has some of them (I just can't claim to know enough to discern which posts are such).
  9. How about ward temple and family history leader? That is now to be a position held by a Melchezidek Priesthood holder (though some exceptions may occur because of local needs). This isn't a situation of tradition. Indeed, many sisters served in this capacity and were released with the recent adjustments.
  10. Ummm. Thankfully you two are still engaging in good faith.
  11. Agreed. The question is why are the priesthood keys limited to just men. As the talk linked in the OP suggests, priesthood authority and power is not limited to men. Keys are not. Positions I've seen taken: priesthood is an artificial construct and men exploit it to maintain power priesthood is real, but men have taken a hold of the reigns (keys) and release them not priesthood is real, keys (in mortality) are limited by God only to offices available to men and we don't know why I subscribe to point 3, but the response "I'm getting really tired of the 'we don't know why' response. I won't buy it anymore." That, of course, speaks to a whole other level testimonial difficulties but is there reasoning that would take the edge off a little of this kind of answer.
  12. Nice thoughts. Thank you. Similar thoughts to the message of this song.
  13. Please don't pick on smac97. While I don't agree with every position he takes, I do find his perspective anywhere from useful to valuable. You as well. No ad hominem por favor.
  14. I do agree that prayer is ultimately the only solution. Unfortunately it would be bad form to promise something that we are uncertain of, but as you phrase it, 'tis not so bad. The other downside is the presumption that those with such concerns haven't already prayed for inspiration. In almost every case they will have*. Suggesting otherwise by recommending they pray about it would be condescending and counterproductive. * Though, in some cases I suspect they have not done it in the right "Not my will, but thine be done" spirit of things. Still, suggesting that is judgemental and usually not productive unless the Spirit paves the way and opens the door for that topic.
  15. From the op, the request/challenge/invitation was to present some reasonings that would sate some of those struggling with some of these issues. While I find much of the discussion insightful and valuable, I'm not seeing a lot of persuasion. Not necessarily that minds need be changed but that those that are troubled/bothered/whatever might understand or concede that some see rationality in the status quo. I'm not sure that bar has been met yet. Nonetheless, I appreciate the interlocuters and this comment is by no means meant to dissuade continued discussion.
  16. Nice quote. It wasn't in Valerie Hudson Cassler's article (I don't think). But it would have fit quite nicely.
  17. Indeed, Elder Oaks was explicit in how the concept of presiding is different for the family and the Church. "...misunderstanding priesthood authority and the great principle that while this authority presides in both the family and the Church, the priesthood functions in a different way in each of them. " https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/priesthood-authority-in-the-family-and-the-church?lang=eng
  18. I find I agree with Valerie Hudson Cassler a fair bit. http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerPolygamy.html Her position (and mine) is that polygamy is A) not something that will practiced long term in the eternities but that, for reasons explained in the article, B) the historical practice had the hand of God in it. Granted this is not a majority opinion among orthodox LDS believers (who reject premise A) and accept B)). Nor, is her position a majority view among not-quite-as-orthodox LDS believers who accept premise A) but reject premise B) as a man-made mistake. But, this isn't an example of something I share with those who are struggling.
  19. Happily, but the process for modifying tags for a subject after the editing option expires eludes me.
  20. Some (including myself) have faith that the current setup is something God accepts – even while we acknowledge there is more to be done as we approach Zion. Some (liked changed) do not have that trust/belief in the current situation and deny in their minds the idea that God accepts the current setup. They do not see acceptable reasons it could bo so and so do not believe. Acceptable reasons do not create faith/trust, but it does make it easier to acquire faith/trust and/or understand those that do have it.
  21. Sis. Ulrich gave a wonderful talk at the Fair Mormon Conference. https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2019/women-men-and-priesthood-power I agree with her doctrine and perspective, but, I know that there will be objections by some who say her perspective is ... incomplete. Some examples (not exhaustive): a woman has no say in where she serves -- even when a sister gives a recommendation, a man (e.g. bishop) has the final say callings for men have the same restrictions, but a man might become a bishop or stake president or such, a women never will, breaking the symmetry the Church has seemingly arbitrary delineations in who serves where (e.g. ward clerk and the more recent Ward Temple and Family History Leader being only a Melchizedek priesthood holder) women participate in Church councils and such but they are pretty much always outnumbered by men etc. (There are those on the board who would add to the list ... you are welcome and encouraged to do so!) I am not interested in casual dismissal of the complaints. Rather, I am looking for perspectives that would allow one who struggles with those kind of criticisms room to breathe in a way that is suggested by the quote below. I have my own ways of phrasing/viewing/responding but I'd like to hear how others might respond. "Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish." -- Austin Farrer
  22. Mods: Probably should move to the social hall.
  23. I found the post-scarcity economics of Star Trek very interesting. Didn't need money for things but people worked productively. Probably the closest situation I've see to an approximate epresentation how the law of consecration might manifest.
  24. I confess, I've enjoyed NBC's The Good Place. It's not about theology so much as it is philosophy (which I have a love-hate mindset about). Curiously, as the writers delved more into the philosophy of it as the seasons continued, they came to a conclusion (link) about morals that has some remarkable similarities to how some in the Church view being good. That's not to say we should look to the show for instruction on morality or doctrine (just as, for example, I don't think we should look to Moanna for instruction about Heavenly Mother). It is still quite unsophisticated, has errors, and lacks any discussion of Grace. Rather, I assert that it is just a lot better than the vast majority of the little bit of contemporary media I've sampled. It's also funny. The trolley dilemma episode was funny (if gruesome). Anyway, in idle curiosity, what are some mass media examples that you believe rose a bit above the morass of moral mediocrity? I suppose this would be a better topic in the social hall, but I'm quite content if there is disagreements (\cough Handmaid's Tale).
  25. And? Less than a third of the US Church membership resides in Utah. Nor should advocacy be equated with tyranny of the majority.
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