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      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis


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About jcake

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  1. It's always interesting to see how people choose to follow Christ and keep the great commandments, to love God, and one another, as he loves us. I admit that it feels, to me, like some people love the traditional thinking of their culture, and can't put it aside, even if it seems unkind and contrary to the teachings of the Savior.
  2. I think we are all learning, thankfully. I certainly am.
  3. I don't think God does look at the calendar to decide what is sin. I do think people are heavily influenced by their culture and time. Which is why I can eat bacon, talk in church, etc. and not be accused of sinning, which wasn't always the case. I do think sin is behaving in a way that does harm to myself or others. The ten commandments seem to fit in perfectly here. When we decide that things that aren't hurting anyone, and may even be caring and loving, are sinful, then I have to give those things a little more thought.
  4. Here are some of the comments comparing former and current church teachings regarding homosexuality. Do you see changes in what church leaders are teaching? If not, please explain. Past Position Present Position Is it a Choice? “Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that ‘God made them that way.’ This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way’?” (Kimball, TMOF) “There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just ‘that way’ and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life.” (Packer, Oct 1976 Gen Conf) “Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them.” (Ballard, “The Lord Needs You Now,” Ensign, Sep 2015, also cited in mormonandgay. org, “Church Teachings”) “While same-sex attraction is not a sin, it can be a challenge. While one may not have chosen to have these feelings, he or she can commit to keep God’s commandments.” (mormonandgay.org, “Church Teachings”) “Perhaps such susceptibilities are inborn or acquired without personal choice or fault…” (Oaks, “Same-Gender Attraction,” Ensign, October 1995) What Causes Homosexuality? “Parents need to know that lack of proper affection in the home can result in unnatural behavior in their children such as homosexuality…” (Victor L. Brown Jr., “Two Views of Sexuality”, Ensign, July 1975) “Homosexuality would not occur where there is a normal, loving father-and-son relationship.” (J. Richard Clarke, Apr 1977 Gen Conf) “If children have a happy family experience they will not want to be homosexual, which I am sure is an acquired addiction, just as drugs, alcohol and pornography are. The promoters of homosexuality say they were born that way. But I do not believe this is true.” (Hartman Rector, Jr., Apr 1981Gen Conf, transcribed from audio) “Don’t blame yourself for your child’s same-sex attraction. This is no one’s fault. Blame is neither necessary nor helpful.” (mormonandgay.org “Ten Tips for Parents”) “We surely encourage parents not to blame themselves and we encourage Church members not to blame parents in this circumstance.” (Oaks/Wickman interview, 2006) [The church deleted significant portions of Hartman Rector’s talk in all text versions, including the passage shown here.] “What is more, [masturbation] too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality.” (Kimball, TMOF) “Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sins of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality. “ (Kimball, “President Kimball Speaks on Morality,” Ensign, Nov 1980) “The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions – whether nature or nurture – those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.” (Oaks/Wickman interview, 2006; also cited in mormonandgay. org, “Church Teachings”) “Every form of homosexuality is sin. Pornography is one of the approaches to that transgression.” (Kimball, “God Will Not Be Mocked”, Ensign, Nov 1974) “’A normal 12- or 13-year-old boy or girl exposed to pornographic literature could develop into a homosexual’” (Victor L. Brown, April 1970 Gen Conf) [Note: none of the recent church resources or talks on homosexuality mentions masturbation or pornography as a cause. As quoted above, the church takes no position on cause, leaving that to the scientific/medical realm.] “Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say?” (Oaks/Wickman interview, 2006) Is it Curable? “Curable and Forgivable – With Effort. After consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable…Certainly it can be overcome…” (Kimball, TMOF) “…a change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders.” (mormonandgay.org FAQ) “I must say, this son’s sexual orientation did not somehow miraculously change–no one assumed it would.” (Holland, Oct 2015 Gen Conf) “And while the number of divorces causes us to fear and admit it partly to be true, the principle of marriage is right. Some have changed their desires and yearnings and have convinced themselves that they are different and have no desire toward the opposite sex. … But let this individual repent of his perversion, force himself to return to normal pursuits and interests and actions and friendships with the opposite sex, and this normal pattern can become natural again.” (Kimball, TMOF) “President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed [marriage] to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: ‘Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.’” (Oaks/Wickman interview, 2006) Difference Between Being Homosexual and ‘Acting on It’ “This perversion [homosexuality] is defined as sexual desire for those of the same sex or sexual relations between individuals of the same sex…” (Kimball, TMOF) “…same-gender attraction is not a sin, but acting on those feelings is…” (Holland, “Helping those who Struggle with Same-gender Attraction,” Ensign, Oct 2007)
  5. If you will read the article, you will see references to some of them. It is long, but very interesting.
  6. Truthfully, I have changed from having a more traditional and condemning view of homosexuality, to one more aligned with the writer of the article. This change was spurred through friendships with wonderful gay people and an increased awareness of the problems of the issue, as well as prayer and study. I think it quite telling that the great volume of scripture that was revealed for our day, never says a word against homosexuality. My association with gay people has not in anyway affected the fact that I am straight, so it has not been contagious, as once commonly implied in comments from church leaders. It would be interesting to note how many of you here, who condemn committed and faithful homosexual relationships, have a close personal relationship with someone who is gay? I don't mean just that you know someone from work, or maybe one of your cousins whom you may have a cordial extended family relationship with; but someone you talk to on a personal level, and affiliate in an unrequired way.
  7. Yes, this is a long paper. To those of you who have an interest in,or willingness to learn more about the church's stances on this issue, it will be quite interesting. " Do we really have absolute doctrinal certainty that God’s will for His children who are born with a homosexual orientation is lifelong celibacy without the emotional, physical and spiritual attachment of someone they are naturally attracted to and can fall in love with?Are we so certain of God’s will on this subject that we are willing to accept as consequences: depression and personal anguish to the point of suicide in some cases, and loss of faith in God and the church in the majority of cases?Are we as a church rightfully resisting societal acceptance of homosexuality, or are we simply holding to past traditions and internal biases that are causing severe harm to gay people, as we previously did with the blacks and the priesthood? Is it possible that society is moving in the right direction, as it generally has over the ages on so many other social issues? In addition to believing that God can provide an answer, any serious consideration of such admittedly difficult questions requires godlike empathy, humility and courage. President Kimball’s experience leading up to the 1978 revelation provides a near perfect model of these traits. Once black people became more than an abstract doctrinal issue to him, and he came to know and understand them as real people, he developed a godlike empathy for them.[51] It wasn’t until he obtained that empathy, and was humble enough to admit the church could be wrong, that he even had the capacity to actually question the church’s position and to begin studying the issue and petitioning the Lord for more understanding. As President Hinckley said of President Kimball: Here was a little man, filled with love, able to reach out to people . . . He was not the first to worry about the priesthood question, but he had the compassion to pursue it and a boldness that allowed him to act, to get the revelation.[52] Reflecting back on those times, President Kimball recalled his personal struggle: Day after day, and especially on Saturdays and Sundays when there were no organizations [sessions] in the temple, I went there when I could be alone. I was very humble . . . I was searching for this . . . I wanted to be sure. . . . I had a great deal to fight . . . myself, largely, because I had grown up with this thought that Negroes should not have the priesthood and I was prepared to go all the rest of my life until my death and fight for it and defend it as it was.[53] Despite years of prophetic precedent and the statements of so many past leaders, he had the courage to question, and even greater courage to begin talking to his fellow brethren of the Twelve and First Presidency about his questioning, which ultimately paved the way for the confirming spirit of revelation and unanimous acceptance by the quorum. Not only was the Spirit working on President Kimball, but it was also working on many faithful members of the church who knew in their hearts long before 1978 that the church’s position was not of God. How did they know? An oft-cited example for testing prophetic pronouncements is this statement from President J. Reuben Clark: I say it illustrates a principle – that even the President of the Church, himself, may not always be ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost,’ when he addresses the people. This has happened about matters of doctrine (usually of a highly speculative character) where subsequent Presidents of the Church and the peoples themselves have felt that in declaring the doctrine, the announcer was not ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.’ How shall the Church know when these adventurous expeditions of the brethren into these highly speculative principles and doctrines meet the requirements of the statutes that the announcers thereof have been ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’? The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.[54]
  8. Here is what I consider to be an excellent article on the LDS view of homosexuality: https://mormonlgbtquestions.com/ I think this is on the money, what do you think of it? jcake
  9. Wasn't it about 1950 when the transparency ended? Up until that time, I believe that the finances of the church were available for anyone to see. If that isn't the case, please respond accordingly.
  10. I don't remember having any lessons like this in the Utah wards that I grew up attending. Sad to hear of it now.
  11. Maybe if we stuck to the scriptures and got rid of all the conflicting things that have been added, our views might be changed. Polygamy was practiced. That it is anything other than a lesser law seems unlikely. The new testament notes that a bishop should be "the husband of one wife", in the book of Mormon the practice is condemned in Jacob. (Yes, some people read the chapter description that adds that it was the way that it was practiced that Jacob was condemning, but the scriptures do not say that at all, check it out.) And the D & C talks about Celestial marriage, followed by talking about Polygamy noting only that polygamy won't be counted as adultry, which is a far cry from touting it as a higher way. Are there any references in scripture that would suggest that polygamy is a higher law that we will be required to accept in the Celestial Kingdom? If you think so, please explain why. If we look at the fruits of polygamy as a gage of it's goodness we have to consider how it has affected missionary work, how it has affected the peace and happiness of women. We do see polygamy still, and the effects it has on women's status, in fundamentalist groups, and in Islamic societies. Is this really what God wants?
  12. My boss at work is also a bishop. So, even though a significant number of employees are non-members and drink coffee, none is provided at work. However, my boss does give us all the soda pop that we want. Based on what we know about the health benefits of coffee and tea, if not drunk hot or overused, and the health issues caused by drinking large quantities of soda, it seems to make little sense, this word of wisdom. Taking the WOW literally would appear to be inspired, since the health issues caused by drinking very hot drinks were not known in earlier times, and using moderation is a key to avoiding unhealthy habits. OW
  13. "The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will make you an athiest, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you." Quote from Werner Heisenberg, the father of Quantum physics.
  14. Ours was all about Jesus the Christ, His atonement and resurrection, along with three beautiful Easter musical pieces.
  15. I would attend the wedding. But I'm pretty questionable, as I've committed other great sins of the bible, like eating bacon, and speaking in church even though I'm female. I don't think gay marriage is the same as marriage between a man and a woman. I suspect that mistakes have been made, and how to regard a same sex, faithful, committed attachment, is not something we have the best grasp of within our church culture But, any heterosexual person that is willing to demonstrate to me by their own, voluntary, choosing to remain celebate and alone through this life, how successful and fulfilling such a lifestyle can be, that is a person worth listening to on this subject.