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Pneumos

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About Pneumos

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    Newbie: Without form, and void

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  1. Lol. Yeah. Home is always the best. Oregon is beautiful. OMG!!! I vacationed there (and Washington) when I was a child. I loved it. Good memories. Yeah, it gets cold in MN. And now with global warming, the seasons and norms have shifted, and it gets even colder; with even more snow.
  2. Sounds like a bit of a stretch. Did Oliver Cowdery ever see Heavenly Father in the flesh? David Whitmer? Which experiences and visions are you referring to? Why was the First Vision (as we know it today) and its implications only taught in the Nauvoo period and not before? I would disagree. Do they, elsewhere, not “already follow”? To continue with the hypothetical leader lady.... They attend the gathering as investigators. They continue to come as investigators — why? Because they are intrigued. In a sense they have already become followers. They like what they see. They might be slow to trust, but that does not mean they do not want to trust. Is the one who is wanting not the one who is following?
  3. That is not how the Holy Spirit works, in my humble opinion. That is merely intuition. Think about it.... A leader establishes a following. Then she tells her following such-and-such is the truth. And then she asks the members of her following to pray and ask God to know whether such-and-such is the truth. How many members would you think will receive confirmation that it is the truth? Most if not all, I suspect. That is because of their intuition; not the Holy Spirit. Let us embrace science and do an experiment of that nature, or observe the phenomenon in various communities. They would tend to believe that they have received confirmation because they want to remain a part of the following and community. Given this, I would say the Holy Spirit works in a different way.
  4. I would never presume to expect others to accept my personal revelations. I would only ever expect that others tolerate me and listen as I reveal them. Also, I would never shut anyone down, and make them stop talking, simply because my personal beliefs differ from theirs. Should they feel the need to reveal their personal revelations, I will listen. I may not agree, but I will listen. When it comes to thoughts and feelings about Christ and his glory, I will always listen. I submit that the First Vision is not the essence of the restoration.
  5. God says to the believer: “Yes, the Church is true, for I have formed it and given it a purpose. However, that purpose has yet to be recognized by the Church. It is not this doctrine or that ordinance which I am working to restore. Rather I am working to restore...” yada yada.
  6. I believe it is unfair that a person should tell me to ask the Holy Spirit about the truth of the matter, only to then deny the answer given to me by the Holy Spirit. What is the point of asking the Holy Spirit when that person already has the answers? Why not forsake the Holy Spirit and simply go straight to them, since they already know?
  7. What if God has witnessed to you that the Church is true, but that the First Vision is false? I would be interested to see how such a testimony would go down at a sacrament meeting.
  8. My point is that, the very thing that Paul had seen was not determined to be the basis for establishing core doctrines. Paul never used his vision (in and of itself) to establish doctrines. Most of the accounts which you mention (that are related in the Bible) are legendary, and were passed down by oral tradition for potentially thousands of years. Historicity was not the concern there, but rather the moral of the story. The First Vision is in a completely different class. For example, there is no clear moral to that story — It is simply meant to establish an empirical fact. Simple question; very complicated answer. Such would be a whole discussion unto itself. The Holy Spirit is the short answer. Though I would say that misunderstanding the precise nature of the Holy Spirit will lead one to misunderstand the way in which the Holy Spirit establishes truth.
  9. [1] Almost all of those examples are not firsthand accounts. [2] Core doctrines are not based solely upon any one of those accounts. And, [3] “But it is the truth....” is a weak argument, in my humble opinion. Any person can claim to have seen Christ and received instructions and revelation; and that person’s followers can then say, “Well, this is the true gospel of Christ.”
  10. The Bible states that truth shall be established by the mouths of two or three witnesses. Therefore, why am I expected to believe in the First Vision when nobody else but Joseph Smith witnessed it? If someone wants to believe the story is true in all of its detail, that is fine; I have no problem with that. But I think it is unfair for authorities to expect the Church as a whole to join together in believing such. This was not the culture of the Apostles, following Jesus. Let a man believe this-or-that, they said, but come together in the love of Christ.
  11. Thanks for the welcome. I totally understand the mentality. My family asks me, How can you watch that certain news outlet? And I say, I like to know every side. And whereas I do not agree with the perspective of that outlet, for the most part, I do occasionally find agreement on various points.
  12. Sure. There is more common ground than uncommon. It makes me glad to hear that God has brought you into the fold of his comfort. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and feelings throughout the months and years. P.S. You cannot go wrong with MN. Good to know that you liked it. Dare I say, we have the best of everything, here in MN.
  13. Nice to meet you @Bill “Papa” Lee Thanks for the advice. I am a fairly young guy, who happens to be disabled; and who has way too much time on his hands, also. To be clear, I will attack your Faith (all in good spirit). 😉 My hope is that God has led me here to meet those brothers and sisters who can shine a little wisdom on matters. I certainly would like to “find my way home again” and join up with the Church once more, but the truth is that the Church does not want someone like me, because I think outside of the box; because I happen to disagree with the authorities and their policies. I tell my young children: “If you feel that Papa is deserving of rebuke, please express that to me, and in a respectful manner.” And they do. And they appreciate the voice I have given them. Moreover, I have been shepherded by a little child at times because of my willingness to accept rebuke from them. Not to mention, my children are better souls because of this willingness. Unfortunately, such is not the culture of the Church at this present time. How can an uneducated young man presume to know better than the wisest men of his day? they ask. Or maybe I am cursed with pretentiousness? I wonder. Whatever the truth may be, God has created purpose in all things. I look forward to hearing from you in future discussions. God bless.
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