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About MrSpruceMoose

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    Newbie: Without form, and void
  • Birthday 01/09/1994

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    Nampa, ID
  1. Progression Between Kingdoms

    No one can know the intracacies of how God works. That is beyond our understanding. However, there are several things we do know. 1. God knows each and everyone of us individually, better than we know ourselves. 2. God is all knowing and knows every event that is going to happen. He knows every tiny detail of this world, no blade of grass is missed. 3. God knows how long we are going to be on this earth. As I quoted in D&C earlier, our days are known and numbered. You seem to be arguing from the point that God is continually adjusting his plan to make it work. That makes absolutely no sense. If he knows everything, then he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit when they would. To say he didn't know and had a contingency plan for if they did is ludicrous. To make this clearer, let me give an example. Imagine a football coach who watches a replay of a football game his team plays in. However, this football game has not been played yet. When it is played, he knows every touchdown, flag, injury, fumble and interception that is going to happen. So knowing everythat will happen, why wouldn't this coach make it so that his team will overcome everything, make no mistakes and win decisively? Because this coach cares more about his player's growth than winning. He will play his role as coach, but he will let his players play how they will play so they can learn from it. I don't know how I can explain it better than that. If you're issue about the word 'appointed' in regards to suicide, as if God decreed that a certain person would kill themselves as a certain time, that is not what I meant. At this point, you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics.
  2. Progression Between Kingdoms

    Where did I ever claim the church has taken a position? I quoted prophets very definitively teaching that progression in glories is false doctrine. If you want to disagree with multiple prophets because there is no official church statement then that's your choice. Also, if you agree then what is your point?
  3. Progression Between Kingdoms

    Refer back to my example of Adam and Eve.
  4. Progression Between Kingdoms

    Now you're getting into the question of how much does God influence events to allow someone's choices to happen. I've already stated, he knows what will happen but that does not mean he is going to interfere with our agency one way or the other.
  5. Progression Between Kingdoms

    Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58;Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons shy there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection. George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:402. I could explain a 100 fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them. Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine. It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually. The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. [Italics in the original.] No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights. This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory. From all of these modern day prophets it seems pretty clear what the doctrine is. But of course, the "church" hasn't taken a position so that must mean it's open to interpretation right?
  6. Progression Between Kingdoms

    No there is no contradiction at all. Do not forget a major point of this life is to gain experience and learn and grow from it. Just because we have our free will does not mean that we can work outside of what God intended to happen. Look at what happened in the beginning. Lucifer rebelled against what our Heavenly Father wanted and in doing so created exactly what was needed for us to have trials in this life. Adam and Eve broke the commandment to not eat from the tree and as a result we are now all here. Two things that would look as if God's will was undermined by agency and yet it was exactly what he intended for his plan.
  7. Progression Between Kingdoms

    Yes, I do believe it is part of God's plan if someone commits suicide. He knows the beginning from the end and everything that happens in between. Just because he knows that someone will commit suicide, doesn't mean he'll take their agency away and keep them from doing it.
  8. Progression Between Kingdoms

    That's not what I'm expressing at all. Yes our Father in Heaven probably does know what we will do and where we will end up in the next life, but that doesn't mean that he takes our free will away. Just because He knows what we are going to do does not mean he has determined our actions. Remember that Nephi and Moses were shown the future of the earth and what events would happen. How could they be shown this if God did not know and was waiting to see what would happen? He knows the beginning from the end because He is the beginning and the end. That does not mean we are predetermined. We still have our agency. It just means that He knows how we will use our agency.
  9. Progression Between Kingdoms

    I also enjoy a good discussion. The scriptures are very plain and yet there are bits that are beyond my understanding sometimes. We don't know everything and there are many mysteries that we will never know in this life. It's fun to discuss them though and try to come to at least some level of understanding from what we do know.
  10. Progression Between Kingdoms

    The Jospeh Smith Translation clarified verse 6 to say: "And it repented Noah, and his heart was pained, that the Lord had made man..." The Hebrew translation of the word repent (found in the footnotes) means to be sorry, moved to pity, or have compassion. So to me, that scripture doesn't give an example of God not having forsight of something. The scriptures can seem ambiguous, but given enough prayer and study, along with modern day revelation given to today's prophets and apostles, there really isn't much left up to interpretation.
  11. Progression Between Kingdoms

    D&C 122:7-9 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? 9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. What exactly is your issue with what I said? You say that God is merciful and yet you deny that he is an all knowing God with an all emcompassing divine plan for each of us. Do you seriously think that men who are killed in war or people who die an accidental death are taken without God's intent? If someone is taken from this earth it is because they were appointed to leave at that time. Maybe someone was taken because they would never accept the gospel in this life but would in the next, we don't know. But, our loving Father in Heaven has a plan for all of us. You even mentioned the work that is done for those who don't hear the gospel in this life. No one is left behind. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING is outside of his plan for us.
  12. Progression Between Kingdoms

    What is the 'doctrine' of eternal progression'? Any argument in favor of moving up in glories is only supported by imaginary connect the dot explainations fueled by wishful thinking. As great as the idea of someone being able to move up in the next life is, where is the scriptural basis for it? Neither modern day prophets or scripture has said anything that even hints at the possibilty of it. In fact there is quite a bit that is much more concrete saying that you cannot move up in glory. What is the point of temple work? We do temple work for those who did not have a chance in this life because they cannot do it themselves. Someone can move from the state of spirit prison to paradise only with the help of us who are here in this life. There is no pure luck. Our days are known and are numbered. God does not allow a life to end based on "luck." In a situation as you described, one would live and one would die because that is how it was divinely meant to be.
  13. Progression Between Kingdoms

    All that is very well and good and I certainly agree. I can't tell what your point is though. Do you realized the questions that you quoted I posed to make a point for the rest of my post and not because I didn't know the answer?
  14. Progression Between Kingdoms

    A scripture comes to mind: Alma 34:32 For behold, this alife is the time for men to bprepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of cthis life is the day for men to perform their dlabors. The argument for eternal progression has some good points. The idea of it is nice also. But why would we need this life then? What's the point? If I can live a telestial life here and move up to a celestial glory in the next then what reason do I have to keep the commandments. Aside from those in spirit prison getting the chance they never had in this life, I don't see anything to say that we can get a do-over in the next life. If I'm wrong then I'll admit it when it becomes doctrine or we find out in the next life, but until then it sounds like wishful thinking to me.
  15. How eternally important is success?

    I may not have been clear enough in my original post. Allow me to clarify. By success, I mean the achieving of someone's goals. Goals like bench pressing 400 lbs, starting a successful business, becoming a millionare, climbing Mount Everest... things of that nature. I am not referring so much to the end results such as having that million dollars or being able to lift 400 lbs. I am referring more to the process of getting there. Obviously, someone can inherit a fortune, or be given a position of power and influence and have not earned it themselves. I'm not talking about people like them. Nor saying that wealth or power should be used as a standard of someones eternal value. My question was about the process of growth that someone must go through to achieve temporal success. If you are in a place or situation that you do not want to be in and you have a vision of where you want to go, then there is personal improvement that you must go through to be able to get yourself to that place. If a small and sickly person wants to bench press 400 lbs, then they must strengthen themselves and their fortitude to be able to reach their goal. This is the personal growth and success I am referring to. My question which I meant to convey in my original post is does THAT kind of success have eternal relevance?