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Everything posted by blueglass

  1. If we combine adam and eve's names, adam meaning "red dirt" and eve meaning "life" we're giving a chance for God to breathe life into this stardust so that they can communicate with us and have more friends with which to share the joy of creation.
  2. Interesting - pretty cool idea. A garden in a space ship temple.
  3. New church video emphasizing the importance of the most well-known 1838 account.
  4. You are still interpreting Clement's Epistle as warning of the death of the church when he's sending this very epistle to the intact structure of presbyters dealing with the infighting. I don't see Paul teaching a structurally brittle and weak church without the strength to call and ordain authoritative presbyters to deal with the contention. How can we believe in a bible produced by an apostate church if this church curated and protected the writings of the apostles when none of the JST has correlation with the earliest greek manuscripts discovered today? The restored church also dealt with massive apostasy and infighting in kirtland and nauvoo with the apostles and members of the first presidency and migrated to the wilderness of the mountain west for refuge. After passing through a near death experience and financial collapse it adjusted, threw off the doctrine of polygamy holding it back and re-emerged powerful and vibrant. What specifically did the restoration restore concerning the doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ? Not penal substitution, not christus victor - what? As Elder Renlund compared with the priesthood as a rocket delivering the payload of the atonement, we're not looking at Christ building the Challenger to just blow it up on a cold morning 100years after his death and resurrection.
  5. I really like this imagery of zion coming forth out of the wilderness. Especially the use of female pronouns in the revealed answer to Elias Higbee. 7 Questions by Elias Higbee: What is meant by the command in Isaiah, 52d chapter, 1st verse, which saith: Put on thy strength, O Zion—and what people had Isaiah reference to? 8 He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the apower of bpriesthood to bring again cZion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her dstrength is to put on the eauthority of the fpriesthood, which she, Zion, has a gright to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost. What are your thoughts on Young's teaching that a single living High Priest can serve as a restoration primal seed to regrow the church?
  6. Stories on the ministry of the three nephite apostles are certainly some of my favorites!
  7. We should definitely have lunch some time on me. I always learn a lot in our discussions.
  8. Clement was facing the apostasy head on. Honoring the departed, doesn't connect complete foreknowledge as referring to apostasy. Clement speaks of providing a continuance not of predicting the death of the church itself. In 1Clem 57:1 Clement still encourages repentance and the authority of an intact church leadership to exercise church discipline, "Ye therefore that laid the foundation of the sedition, submit yourselves unto the presbyters and receive chastisement unto repentance, bending the knees of your heart."
  9. 1. No presidency isn't a problem, Brigham Young taught that "Should the Presidency die The Twelve Could organize another Presidency". John was a member of the first apostolic presidency and our own scriptures say he escaped death. Perhaps you're saying that John was not taught that he could do this? Therefore the blame goes on Jesus for not teaching a proper succession plan in his post-resurrection 40-day ministry? 2. New International Version to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. NRSV 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. 3. Not sure how to see these eccelsiastical structures as they pertain to the early christian church as pertains to the office of episkopos and peter and the church in rome or james in Jerusalem. 4. Something which is dead, doesn't continue to grow and grow across the world, deliver to us a canon of scriptures in 367AD with the 39th festal letter, or produce such a rich history of theology, culture, music, schools of learning, or art. 5. John who never died lost his keys?
  10. Humans had sacred burial ritual and carefully prepared graves for at least 34,000 years, with burial sites dating back over 100,000 years to Neanderthals. An article from Discovery magazine, ' "Some 34,000 years ago, two boys and a middle-aged man were buried in fantastic style. They were laid to rest wearing over 13,000 mammoth ivory beads, hundreds of perforated fox canine teeth and other adornments. Discovered in the 1960s, at the site of Sungir, Russia, the burials also contained spears, figurines and the hollowed out shaft of a woman’s femur, packed with red ochre. Archaeologists estimate the ivory beads alone would have taken 2500 hours of labor to produce. We’ll never know what particular beliefs these ancient people held. But such elaborate, time-intensive burials strongly suggest they conceived of an afterlife and spiritual forces. It’s something that we see today in nearly every culture on Earth, and it’s usually tied to religious practices and beliefs. In fact, archaeologists often use graves like these as a rough marker for the emergence of religion in human societies."
  11. No - I also read both of Harari's books and I don't have a well-kept lawn or treat my dog poorly. I'm saying that Holland won't be lining up to get his greedy hands on Harari's latest book. he doesn't care to read science books.
  12. Are you pretty convinced on this 6000 years ago time period for the fall of adam and eve, death, and sin in Missouri north america?
  13. I don't understand Nibley's take on evolution. He portrays science as a big mess of confusion. He does take a clear and direct position on who Adam is though which is good. "Adam becomes Adam, a hominid becomes a man, when he starts keeping a record. What kind of record? A record of his ancestors—the family line that sets him off from all other creatures. Such records begin very early, to judge by the fabulous genealogic knowledge of the Australian aborigines (A. P. Elkin) or the most "primiitive" Africans (L. Frobenius)." "That gap between the record keeper and all the other creatures we know anything about is so unimaginably enormous and yet so neat and abrupt that we can only be dealing with another sort of being, a quantum leap from one world to another. Here is something not derivative from anything that has gone before on the local scene, even though they all share the same atoms." So we can track writing systems to the Sumerians at 3200BC and call one of these guys Adam?
  14. We could call this garden under a glass dome in Missouri Biosphere 0. https://biosphere2.org/
  15. Should we send Holland a 23andMe DNA report?
  16. The official position of the church is that it has no position on evolution. Once I purchased a kindle book on all the official statements published by BYU. https://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-Evolution-Authoritative-LDS-Statements-ebook/dp/B005H7UMJA Here's a short article on evolution in the Ensign which is brief and maddening and worthless. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng Elder Holland on what really matters about evolution: "I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that [don't buy Yuval Harari's book - you're wasting time and money], but I do know these: 1) two were created under the divine hand of God 2) for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting 3) there was neither human death nor future family 4) through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. 5) their transgression had spiritual consequences as well, cutting them off from the presence of God forever.
  17. šnw “endless time, eternity”; šnt nt pt “circuit of heaven” Alma 7:20 "his course is one eternal round."
  18. It's actually called "wafting" yourself from place to place. Wilford Woodruff's journal Jan3, 1837 "President Z. Coltrin ordained me as a member of the first Seventy & Pronounced great blessings upon my head by the Spirit of Prophecy & Revelation. Some of them I will mention which are as follows: THAT my enemies may Confine me in Prisions & Chains & that I would rend the Prisions & Chains in twain in the name of JESUS CHRIST & that the Lord would give me great Power, Knowledg, & wisdom & faith so that I should heal the sick caus the Blind to see the lame to leap as an heart, the Deaf to hear Stop the mouths of Lions & rase the dead to life & waft myself (as did Philip) from River to river from Sea to sea & from Continant to Continant for the Purpose of Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ & that I should stand before Kings & Princes & that they would send for me to receieve Wisdom Knowledge & instruction at my mouth because they Considered me wiser than themselves in like manner as the Egyptians sought wisdom at the hand of JOSEPH."
  19. dealing with ontology and epistemology, exodus stories "a slow sunrise over months of making choices to believe that light came back". "that fact that it has helped me think of other people." "times when I was growing up and the book of mormon brought peace" "I thought I was intellecutally honest - I wasn't honest about "all these other things" - maybe there is a god. and god is loving?" "remember that experience you had on your mission - when you were baptized." I can say more than "i choose to believe" "I have so many questions" AofF #9 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/images/meme-articles-faith-ninth-1567825?lang=eng "God can take the biggest train wrecks in our lives and he can make something beautiful out of them."
  20. I thought the long length dresses the sisters wear were already a fundamentalist worry, then they came out with weird pants recommendations https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/all-sister-missionaries-now-have-option-of-wearing-slacks?lang=eng Now with this jackets rule not sure what's going on. Was the mission presidents wife (still no update on this title change) on board with this rule change?
  21. Why do members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood were taken from the earth? 1) Not all apostles were killed, John an apostle who held Apostolic keys was granted "apower over bdeath, that I may live and bring souls unto thee. " according to D&Cov7 Joseph and Oliver use the seer stone and receive a vision of a parchment of John and given power to translate it that they may obtain an answer to their question. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/7?lang=eng 2) Paul teaches immortal church that the gospel of Christ Jesus would be upon the earth "throughout all ages, world without end." Ephesians 3:21 3) The letter of 1Clement (first century dated 80 - 140AD) says the Apostles themselves instructed the bishops and ordained them with power to call and ordain other bishops to retain succession and authority. 1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office. 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration. 4) Brigham Young teaches robust quorum succession in the event of catastrophe (see Wilford Woodruff journal July 28, 1860) that if either the first presidency or the twelve or both are killed the seventy can recreate the church and can re-organize the higher quorums - which matches the letter of Clement. Quote: "The President of the Church holds the keys of the sealing powers & his Council act in Concert with him [in] all things. Should the Presidency die The Twelve Could organize another Presidency & should the Presidency & Twelve all be slain the Seventies being Equal in power & Authority to the Twelve or first Presidency Could organize both Quorums. He also taught that a high priest is a primal seed and can re-organize the church if all authorities are dead (nuclear holocaust, alien uprising, voyages to new planets etc). Quote: "The High Priest Could organize the Church in all its parts if all other Authorities were dead for they have the Melchizedek Priesthood out of which grow all of the Higher offices of the Church." 5) John Taylor teaches of revelations received during the time of "darkness" which coincides with Ephesians 3 John Taylor, 7-Sept 1873 "Say some—'Oh, we are so enlightened and intelligent now. In former ages, when the people were degraded and in darkness, it was necessary that he should communicate intelligence to the human family; but we live in the blaze of Gospel day, in an age of light and intelligence.' Perhaps we do; I rather doubt it. I have a great many misgivings about the intelligence that men boast so much of in this enlightened day. There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world. There were men who could tell the destiny of the human family, and the events which would transpire throughout every subsequent period of time until the final winding-up scene. There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness, and deliver me from the light and intelligence that prevail in our day;" Just to be clear I believe in restoration - these points arose as I studied the matter more closely when I served as a ward mission leader and the update of Preach my gospel released.
  22. post first manifesto there were a lot of deals made with wealthy members to keep the church from going insolvent. A few entries from Wilford Woodruff's journal: July 20, 1893 20 I signed a Dozen Recommends for 2d Anointing. We got up 126 names to Borrow $1,000 cash to help the Church for a season through th[is?] difficulty. I met with J. F Smith & the Twelve in the Temple for Prayer And we Conversed upon the financial Condition of the Church. I met with the Lawyiers to day upon the water question. Sept 15 1896 15 I held a M[eet]ing with ZC.M.I. Took out $200,000 out of the Reserve fund. We done a good Deal of Business. Sept 22, 1896 22 I Borrowed $2,000 this morning of J R Winder & George Romney to pay upon our Notes that were Crouding upon us. We are in a terrible financial Condition. Susan Called upon me to day for some Council about renting her farm. Oct 9, 1896 9 I spent the Day in the office. We Met to arange the Mutual Improvement Presidency. W Woodruff is the superintendt & Joseph F Smith H J Grant & Brigham H Roberts are my assistent. We took up one $25,000 Dollar Note from Mr Clarkson through the Assistance of John M Cannon A bit of a turn-around with this entry Nov 16 1896 [] I Received 2 Letters one from Sylvia M Thompson. Held a Meeting with the ZCMI Board. Cash on hand $71,235.60. Recepts for Oct 286,859.63. Disbursments $277,939.52. Cash on hand 80,155.73. The institution is doing well.
  23. Wilford Woodruff journal: March 30, 1877 This is the first day I ever went [to] the [Temp?]le to get Endowments for the Dead. I got Endowments to day for the Prophets Robert Mason. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgVUBQMDVu8] We gave Endowments to 150. There was 52 Elders ordained. W Woodruff ordained 2. 1 was ordained a High Priest & Patriarch for the Prophet Mason. There was 152 of the dead of the Hart family baptized for to day. Bulah A Woodruff Beatie was Baptized for 60 of them. July 12, 1896 I was Adopted to my Father Aphek Woodruff. He was ordained a High Priest & Patriarch.
  24. This is known as Paul Reeve's false justification #6 http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70793-emergence-of-new-justifications-for-the-black-priesthood-and-temple-ban/
  25. Praise Yahweh! Just to be clear though the Lord was not the source of the black priesthood/temple ban doctrines or policy. It was a catastrophic mistake. Prophets reveal wonderful doctrines but they can also invent garbage because they and all of us are fallible.
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