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Steve J

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About Steve J

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  1. Steve J

    David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

    I do agree that it is not small potatoes, and I don’t pretend to know the answer to LGBTQ issues and our theology. I try to remember that everyone, including our church leaders, look through a cloudy glass in this life. After hearing his podcast, I rededicated to myself to supporting LTGBQ Mormons and non-Mormons in and out of the church no matter what decisions they make concerning how to navigate their path. Each LGTBQ individual has my support as they personally work through their faith in relation to their sexuality and choose their path. I do not pretend to have the answers. I do although wonder if reactions to the Nov policy have in someways not accomplished the goal to prevent/limit suicide in the Mormon community. No matter your view on the policy and your view on how much the church still has to improve/change, the Mormon faith has never been as accepting to LGTBQ members
  2. Steve J

    Middle Way Mormonism

    I read some of them, but didn’t really get a sense that a definition was agreed upon. For your quiz, I think it would be helpful to define both middle way Mormon and cafeteria mormon
  3. Steve J

    David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

    I agree with your points. However, I think there is a difference between moral ethics and a common set of belief of a religion. I guess the questions is who the apologists are making an argument to.... I think with a common set of beliefs that they can make an argument to their religious community (as long as they let them know that they are doing theology with the assumption that supernatural events can occur), but not to a secular scholarly community who don’t share those common set of beliefs...
  4. I just read the letter he sent....TL:DR i am smarter than all of you. No one answered all my questions specifically to my satisfaction. Read the CES letter and To know the church is false. 10000000 problems that I specifically counted. I have a podcast and everyone who isn’t a complete idiot(ex of complete idiots- anyone who believes in the truth claims of the church) knows me for my complete honesty, integrity, and 100% knowledge on church scholarship. Again,m your church is false and you don’t know that bc the church hid it from you and you’re too big of a sheep to know it. This excommunication will be really hard on me since I Will be separated from my tribe of dumb lazy superstitious sheep that don’t know the 1000 things that prove the church truth claims false. Here is a link to the CES letter. (World I will post this everywhere and let everyone know down to the minute when I sent it to my SP) ps. - from Steve J- I have no issue with someone who reads the things he listed and learns more about the Church that comes to reject the foundational claims and mission of the church. However, I disagree when he then goes onto label anyone who doesn’t reach those same conclusions as either ignorant or deceitful.
  5. Steve J

    David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

    I think his distinction would come down once you invoke God/Supernatural that what you are doing now is theology, even though your theology might be shaped by scholarship. For example, my belief that Jesus rose from the dead in /near Jerusalem is pure faith, but the fact that I believe he rose in/near Jerusalem it is shaped by basic historical scholarship.. e.g. the texts originate from that area during that time period, etc... I think though that apologetics is normal since everyone’s theology is shaped in some extent by scholarship. Atheists theology is shaped by it, Bokovoy himself states his biblical studies has shaped his current belief system ... Now I think it’s completely true how he frames the BOM having ancient motifs in a 19th century context, but I see this more as a result of it being a type targem /communitive act translation. Also, I can see how it can be properly labeled as pseudographic.Now, I don’t see the whole BOM as easily as explainable as they suggest, but I agree with what Grant Hardy has stated that if he wasn’t Mormon (or in other words didn’t have faith) that he would see no reason not to see it as a 19th century text. “From what I can tell he largely thinks all of Joseph's scriptures are purely fictional and 19th century works. Which isn't a terribly strong sense of Mormonism”... I think a more accurate statement would be that he sees no reason that they can’t be seen and interpreted as “purely fictional and 19th century works” and is agnostic to if they are “miracles” in that they represent more than that. I don’t think that whether or not they are miracle texts and in someway have “historicity” matters to him anymore in the way he views deity and scripture. Now, I agree with 85% of what he says, but I do find find it important to have faith that there is some level of historicity behind the BOM, even though I don’t have a problem classifying the text as a 19th century work and think that we can’t prove the BOM ancient text. Although, like Bokovoy I find it fruitful Avenue to study these texts using an ancient lens.
  6. Thank you for keeping me honest. This will be my last post.
  7. Really? I looked at your comments over the last year and have seen comments you made on twitter and facebook. None of your comments have even slightly demonstrated the specifics or spirit of that linked document. If you do believe those things (and only you know), it's impossible to come to that conclusion based on your public statements.
  8. When we are active Mormons, most of us saw problems. But we somehow intuit that we must protect and show loyalty to the institution in order to belong. So we tell our neighbors how great it is. We pretend to be a perfect family. We smile and we refuse to give voice to the things that are wrong that we see and feel. We allow ourselves to be abused and have trauma inflicted on us. We choose to believe the bad answers we are given because belonging seems so important to us....... then once we step away we sense how much better the world is on the other side. Fear. Risk aversion. Worries about our marriage or family relationship. Those risks are real but most people report being far better as a human being once they step away. And yet the Holy Ghost is more effective than secular tools for knowing truth..... meanwhile secular tools showed this to be fake while many Latter-day Saints felt its truthfulness.... huh And the best modern prophets can do is change the names of activities and protocols and reduce church by an hour and throw past prophets under the bus disavowing their teachings? As I have done that I have become adeptly aware that Mormonism offers the least amount of inspiration of the places I spend my time and energy. It offers the least amount of wisdom. It offers the least amount of encouragement to develop into deeper stages of humanity and consciousness than any of the other areas I spend my time. It can not afford to have you actually seek truth objectively, as you would discover that what you thought was the brightest smoothest pearl in your small pile inside your small box, was actually rough and dull when compared with the immense world of pearls available in the world. But you are not even allowed to take your eyes of the pile in your box to see it. Mormonism is so threatened by real truth that its only course is to scare everyone from even looking. Mormonism is unhealthy and toxic for so many. It is not the Balm of Gilead for so many The LDS Church likes its "faithful" scholars. What makes a LDS Scholar "Faithful"? Simple! A LDS Scholar is "faithful" when in spite of knowing the data and the facts and such being their expertise, they prefer to make emotional appeals for the Church being true rather than make any appeal to the data that they are experts in?In other words it is their ability to set their scholar hat aside that makes an LDS scholar "faithful." A Faithful scholar instead is not a scholar at all in such conversations but rather an expert of emotional appeal with an educational degree around scholarship but knows full well that the scholarship he is an expert in, is not on his side of the argument. Arguments only based on the facts essentially never work out in favor of the Church's truth claims and hence a faithful scholar wants to do everything except appeal to scholarship. Wouldn't it be faster if Prophets, Seers and Revelators could just ask God? The trouble is once the biased lens of Mormonism was shed from my eyes I began to realize something else about Elder Holland which is that he seems to be deceptive and flat out lying on multiple occasions. And often about small things that seemed to indicate a person who easily decides and chooses to exaggerate and deceive. In the end, vulnerability and honesty is the only answer. Sadly leaders never seem to contain both. For the narrative to change, the Church must first go silent in all the ways it imposes the very things it needs to change "“Larger productions, such as pageants, are discouraged. As it relates to existing pageants, conversations with local Church and community leaders are underway to appropriately end, modify or continue these productions.”" Bye bye historical book of Mormon, Bye Bye literal Nephites and Lamanites, Bye Bye Literal Moroni.... and Literal Jesus right along with it! Bye Bye hill Cumorah!!! "When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the church closed ranks in a conspiracy of silence to protect its own reputation at the expense of these children." Then Jesus asked ....... But they remained silent. Bill Reel asked ......... But they remained silent. What the ....... Sadly the idea of authority to do what the hell you want because your God said so, even if rationale and reason says your an idiot, is at the heart of why religion is so unhealthy and abusive and toxic So Mormonism burns everyone out rather than lightens their load? Huh The world is watching you Mormonism and it isn’t looking to well! First Moroni tells Joseph that he has to to have Alvin, Joseph's older brother, with him to retrieve the plates. Well strangely Moroni was clueless and God who surely gave Moroni that message was clueless as Alvin died... Today We sit down with Spencer Wright, author of “How To Think”, and discuss how Faith and Rational thought are actually opposites. Sadly shame is a huge part of being a believing mormon A church led by prophets is one of the last to work to protect children. How prophetic!
  9. I really wasn't going to comment anymore, but I find it odd that those who no longer believe in the Church truth claims (and they have their free agency to do just that without getting shunned or made into evil people) make such a big deal about resigning from the Church and not being on the membership list anymore, but then argue that the Church shouldn't be able to take anyone off its membership list. It seems that in any relationship it should be equal, unless those opposed to excommunication also want to prohibit members from resigning themselves. I personally think that excommunication should be rare and a last option, but I would think its common sense to expect to be kicked out of any group that I state is false, evil, harmful, and liars.. and oppose their entire mission statement
  10. But i'm sure Jesus ( LDS Jesus, historical/secular Jesus, or "mythical Jesus"(as he loves to always talk about)) would definitely allow his apostles and followers to always scream and tell everyone that this Jesus guy is not really the Savior, that what he was doing was evil and hurting people, and that he purposefully was telling lies to deceive and hurt. Jesus would have been just cool with that and said the guy over there who doesn't believe in me is one of my disciples and we should let him stay so that everyone will know that he is a Christian.
  11. I have my issues with his public actions and declarations. I'll keep my comments limited.
  12. Steve J

    Wrapped together as a scroll?

    no, sorry i think that is still a valid question (literal or metaphorical... my answer is meta)... But I was just pointing out where that language is coming from and that I don't think asking what Nephites thought about the earth is the right question to ask to answer that question ( I have no clue what was actually on the plates that got translated or how close it was to the language of "rolled up as a scroll" "fervent heat", etc...)
  13. Steve J

    Wrapped together as a scroll?

    Also you need to look at 2 Peter 3:10... which in the BOM accompanies "together as a scroll" language(fervent heat, etc.. Grant Hardy points this out)... and explains why we have earth instead of heaven being rolled up... this was a common scripture mashup of JS day to discuss about the end of days/judgment ... so if you believe that the BOM is a translation(as I do-loose/translation/communicative/targem) than this modern intertexuality
  14. Steve J

    what is our position on the Caravan

    I agree that their is no real discussion about improving home country conditions