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PacMan

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About PacMan

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  1. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    Not necessarily, but that's actually the exact point of the article that I noted earlier that argued that horses were anciently native to the Americas and that today's (reintroduced) animals follow the same genetic markers...meaning they are the same. Of course, I think the argument makes more sense that they actually never left, but what'eva.... Thus, jkwilliams last comment is also not correct. The science matches up current horses with what is known of the ancient horses in the Americas.
  2. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    Sorry, no. The argument is that the BoM is false because it mentions horses, which critics argue did not exist during BoM times. This is the critics' argument (not mine), so they bear the burden of proof. As I've shown, they cannot conclude that horses did not exist in Americas during BoM due to the Curly horse, which, at best (for them), science cannot conclude where they came from. Now, if my argument were that the BoM was true because horses existed pre-Columbian, then I would hold that burden of proof. But I wouldn't make such a stupid argument in the first place because the veracity of the BoM has virtually nothing to do with horses, whatsoever.
  3. PacMan

    Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

    You're wrong. Get over it. The three attorneys that frequent this board have explained why, ad nauseum. That you don't know what a canon is and subjectively misapply it does not change this fact.
  4. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    jkwilliams, you don't understand how evidence or burden work. Things are as they appear, unless proven otherwise. The Curly was part of the Americas from our earliest Western records. That, alone, is sufficient evidence for nativity. If someone believes otherwise, it is their burden to prove it. So to the point you believe you have no burden, I am glad you have finally accepted that the Curly horse is native to the Americas and that the BoMs references therein are spot on. In any event, the dispute is one made by the critics that horses did not exist in the Americas during BoM times. That they make the claim, it is their burden to prove it. And to the point that science (common sense aside) does not support that claim, they have nothing to go on. They lose. End of story.
  5. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    Ummm...that Darwin saw them in Paraguay early in the 19th Century IS evidence. The burden is now on the critic to show that the existence was limited and not native. I don't have to prove a negative. That's what you're asking.
  6. PacMan

    Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

    Smac, Without an element of damages, it's not a cause of action. If there's no recovery, there's no standing, and no subject matter jurisdiction.
  7. PacMan

    Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

    None of this makes sense. Fraudulent concealment is not a claim. It's a defense against the statute of limitations. Colosimo v. Roman Catholic Bishop of Salt Lake City, 2007 UT 25, 156 P.3d 806, (2007) ("Under the fraudulent concealment doctrine, Utah courts toll the running of the limitations period if 'a plaintiff does not become aware of the cause of action because of the defendant's concealment or misleading conduct.'). Beyond fraudulent concealment, she raises only 3 other claims against the Church -- all of which were dismissed. In other words, she successfully evaded the statute of limitations to bring . . .what, exactly? She has no cognizable claims left. I really like Judge Kimball as both a judge and as a person. But he is off in left field on this one. The case should be dismissed.
  8. PacMan

    Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

    If Vaughn Walker (a gay California judge) can adjudicate In re Marriage Cases (the California gay marriages cases), then Kimball doesn't have a problem. The bar to find conflict to offend due process is actually quite high.
  9. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    I would be obliged if you'd name the particular Spanish colony that bred Curly horses, note the time of the colonization, and then show how they ended up in the Americas. Last time I checked, the Curly horse wasn't native to the Phillipines and Marianas. If you're going to try to trump the conversation of horses in America with "the Spanish brought them" without more, then this whole thread is a waste of time. Your explanation for the Curly horse is completely speculative and you have no sound evidence to explain how they got not only to North America, but also to South America. The current science is, quite simply, a big "we don't know." Consequently, you have very little to hang your hat on. To the contrary, Joseph Smith can hang his hat on the fact that horses are known to exist in the Americas anciently, existed by the 19th Century, have the same genetic make-up of those ancient American horses now thought extinct, and no one can quite conclude how many (namely the Curly) got here. Frankly, that's a pretty good recipe to rebut the popular thinking that horses didn't exist here until the Spanish brought them. That you're doggedly opposed to the notion, I suppose, is no surprise.
  10. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    It's unrelated to the conclusion of the progenitors of the American Curly. But to the extent that it is relevant, it cuts against you. As your article notes, the curly hair in the American Curly is a dominant gene. It is clearly not in the American Mustang. Consequently, these are two different animals. But in either event, your article offers no support for the conclusion that (all?) Curly horses in the Americas come from Spanish horses.
  11. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    Respectfully, I saw nothing in your posts qualifying as "genetic research." It was a conclusory opinion. If you look at the broad literature available, there are many, many more question marks than answers when it comes to the origins of the Curly horse. For example, how was the Curly related to Spanish horses? The answer is through Mustangs. But they are two different horses. While scientists have been able to trace the relation of Western American curly horse to Mustangs, they do not say that they come the former come from the later. They can't, because they don't. Again, they are two different horses. Interbreeding does not answer the question of where the Curly comes from. And neither does your post. I'd also note that I have been unable to find any commentary that the Spanish brought over the Curly horse. The Colonial Spanish Mustang is well-known, but I have found nothing supporting the Spanish introduced the Curly.
  12. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    I'd also note the following article contends that the wild horses in the US are not necessarily non-native. The interesting prospect is that if the Spanish brought horses to the new world that shared the same markers as native horses, that would explain how science erred in concluding that all horses in the Americas were brought by the Spanish -- because, genetically, there would be little to distinguish a Spanish horse from its American cousin. https://awionline.org/content/wild-horses-native-north-american-wildlife
  13. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    The idea that the Curly horse descended from Spanish horses is sloppy. Curly horses in North America interbred with Mustangs. But even a cursory review of the two show them to by two very different species. The question is, then, where did the original Curlys come from? And how were they found not just in North America, but also in Paraguay by Darwin? In fact, Curlys are Asiatic. So it begs the question how the Spanish got their hands on one to even bring over. The best evidence of an ancient animal is its modern descendant.
  14. PacMan

    Horses in the Book of Mormon

    And then there's the Curly horse. Darwin documented curly horses in South America in the early 1800s, and Native Americans considered them both sacred mounts and battle mounts. Furthermore, pioneers recorded seeing them in the Western US. In fact, a Native American 1801 drawing by High Dog, a Lakota Indian, depicts Sioux stealing Curly horses from Crow Indians. No one knows where they came from. Speculation is that some group of unspecified Russians brought them to South America. But that's unfounded speculation. Game. Set. Match.
  15. PacMan

    William Smith - A Tragedy of Betrayal

    I'm not going to try to convince you, but I will explain my view. The idea of raising a child in the church and going through baptism, ordinations, and church programs is more than cultural. The whole purpose of being a member is to make and keep covenants that help bring you to Christ. The problem is that these covenants (namely the temple) are non consistent with homosexuality. I don't think that's a surprise. So once you have a boy or girl turn twelve, the questions, if they understand them, really go to whether they are willing, explicitly or implicitly, to renounce their family structure. In my mind, that is not fair to do. I think it is better to let these kids grow up and not have the pressure to "choose" between their family and their church as minors. Wait until they are adults and can better measure both the commitment and consequences of their covenants.
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