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Kenngo1969 last won the day on June 10

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About Kenngo1969

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  1. I'm not sure I agree with precisely how you're worded your second clause, because I see the issue as too complex, there are too many psychological and other variables, simply to conclude that anyone who takes the course that "Laurie Lee" has is doing so purely out of base, lascivious motives. But yes, the nanosecond I commit to someone else by being sealed to her and by conceiving a child with her, my feelings, needs, inclinations and so on cease to be of paramount importance.
  2. Her actions are not mine to judge, but, yes, anyone who takes actions after getting married and having children (and especially after adopting one, which is a purely planned, voluntary act) which turn the traditional family structure on its head is doing exactly that. I believe The Family: A Proclamation to the World, which states that children are entitled to be reared by a mother and a father (as those terms are ordinarily defined) within the bonds of man-woman marriage.
  3. At the risk of being redundant, I will reiterate that, yes, I have no idea what it's like to be challenged by gender dysphoria, and no, I don't want to be unsympathetic to anyone's plight. And yes, the timing at which one comes to a full realization of the implications one's gender dysphoria varies. That all having been said, though, one's quest to find one's "authentic self" takes a back seat to the needs of one's spouse when s/he gets married, and it especially takes a back seat to the needs of one's children when they come on the scene.
  4. I should also add (while this is implicit in my previous reply, I wish to make it explicit) that whether excommunication is the final step out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the first step back into the Church of Jesus Christ depends entirely upon the person being excommunicated.
  5. Depends entirely on how they respond to it. Excommunication actually is an act of mercy in that it relieves someone of the obligation to keep covenants they can no longer keep. Do leaders sometimes take the wrong approach with respect to excommunication? Perhaps, but, while I have never been directly involved in the process, the leaders I have known who have been directly involved in it (and I have had family members who have been excommunicated) have approached it in a spirit of great love, care, and concern for the (former) member.
  6. You crazy, combative Canuck! Quit fomentin' contention on my thread whydon'tcha?! P.S.: I haven't had a chance to look at any of your links. I would be loathe to take issue with most anything any of the Brethren say. Do we face tailored challenges in this life? Yes. Do we face hap crappening? Man's inhumanity to man? Law of the harvest? Yep. But I think we need to be careful appealing to mortal wisdom and perspectives (or, for that matter, we need to be careful attempting to divine the inscrutable mind of God) in an attempt to put any particular challenge into any particular category: I doubt we'll have those answers before we go the the PPI with Heavenly Father on the other side.
  7. Rock_n_Roll: Good point. Clark Goble: Yep.
  8. As should we all. (Our ability to do so is limited by mortal limits on perception, on cognition, on ability to empathize, and so on, but, to the extent we can, I certainly think we should.) Yes, to whatever extent judgment was passed upon her, that is unfortunate and regrettable, and certainly, anyone (outside of a Judge in Israel passing righteous judgment) passing such judment is in need of repentance. Since she apparently found a therapist who endorsed gender reassignment surgery, she certainly wasn't judged by that therapist, and if her wife was supportive even after hearing the fuller revelation of her true feelings and struggles, she certainly wasn't judged by her wife. I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding her excommunication, and I find it difficult to believe that she would share the whole picture publicly if it did not cast her in the best light. The position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints respecting excommunication is different than yours or Duncan's. Again, if you know all of the circumstances surrounding her excommunication (and I can hardly believe she's told the whole story if it doesn't serve the "Look-what-the-Big-Bad-Mean-Church-Did-to-Me" narrative), you're one up on the rest of us. That doesn't seem to match the narrative favored by the overwhelming majority of people who see gender reassignment surgery as a viable solution to whatever problems undeniably exist. As I said earlier, while I don't endorse equating individuals with any conditions they may have, It seems to me that, in the name of political correctness, the relevant professional communities have drawn a rather arbitrary line between what constitutes a behavioral health disorder and what does not. I can't discern any intelligible, consistent principles which underlie the drawing of such lines. As I said earlier, simply because I perceive myself as the One-Eyed, One-Horned, Flying Purple People Eater, Pigeon-Toed and Undergrowed doesn't mean that someone should gouge out an eye, implant a horn in my skull, perform podiatric surgery on me to make me pigeon toed, and remove a few vertebrae to make me even shorter. I certainly don't understand all of the reasons behind why such vicissitudes as gender dysphoria might exist in this fallen world. However, I think that only someone with a good deal of hubris would think himself qualified to make the sort of judgments one must make in order to agree to perform gender reassignment surgery on someone. You're presuming you know the whole story behind why she was excommunicated. I highly doubt that's the case. And again, your understanding of the purposes behind excommunication does not match the stated aims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in imposing that sanction. Agreed.
  9. So God is Santa Claus? We get "presents" if we're "good" and "lumps of coal" if we're "bad"? Nah! If someone is blessed for his or her obedience, more power to him or her, but the longer I live, the more I realize that the fewer such guarantees we have. The only real guarantee we have is a reward for our obedience hereafter. As for the "going-through-something-to-get-something" idea, I think that's right, but I think, largely, what we "go through" is mortality, and what we get comes hereafter. See also here: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/
  10. Why? Apparently, you ... alone among mortals, apparently ... already are intimately acquainted with what it means, how it feels, and so on, to be resurrected. Do tell! You've been holding out on us! If, by "changed body," you're talking about reassignment surgery, then yes, I think that anyone should think twice, or thrice, or even more, about opting for such a drastic "solution." You yourself admit that Canadian surgeons are more cautious ... and, as a general rule, very probably are much wiser than their U.S. brethren and sisters of the white coat and scrub suit set. And I'm sure that God will be ready, willing, and able to answer them eventually (Ay, there's the rub! ) We mere mortals have such problems with that "eventually" part, and we're all-too-willing, in our hubris to conclude that the best way to respond to this temporary, mortal challenge ... formidable though it is ... is to second-guess God's handiwork (even if it is imperfect in a mortal sense) and to conclude that we know so much better than He. You know what? If someone said, "Hey, Ken! Congratulations! Neurosurgeons have perfected a procedure that will cure your Cerebral Palsy ... not just alleviate the symptoms, not just improve your function, but out-and-out cure you" ... I'd have to do some really serious thinking: It's not as though such a thing would come without risk, and even if the risk were minimal and the reward would get me oh-so-much closer to that resurrected state, I've been living in this body for almost 50 years, and I'm not naive enough to believe that such a sudden change wouldn't come without its own set of serious, perhaps-formidable challenges. (Think Flowers for Algernon) ...
  11. God had nothing to do with the "creation" of gender dysphoria, any more than He had to do with the "creation" of Cerebral Palsy. Each of these maladies/anomalies are simply two of life's innumerable vicissitudes. They're part of "opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11) and of being proven "herewith, to see if [we] will do all things whatsoever the Lord [our] God shall command [us]" (Abraham 3:22-25).
  12. True. I don't understand why gender dysphoria is considered simply another equally-valid way of perceiving and of relating to the world, while, e.g., clinical depression or schizophrenia is not. I don't think that anyone with an illness (whatever it is) is their illness, but if I think I'm One-Eyed, One-Horned, Flyin' Purple People Eater Who's Pigeon-Toed and Undergrowed, I don't think the best solution to that challenge is to give me treatment which stunts my growth or hunches me over, makes me grow a horn, gouges out an eye, and makes me sprout wings.
  13. True, from a logical standpoint A=>B does not automatically dictate that B=>A. But while the scriptures don't necessarily explicitly say that God is an enemy to the natural man, they do say that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (though, to be fair, they also don't say that God cannot look upon sinners with the least degree of allowance). I'm not familiar enough with the circumstances that might accompany elective sex-reassignment surgery to know when a particular case might warrant excommunication while another one may not: I have no specific information regarding this particular case, but perhaps the case under discussion falls into the former category because he persisted in his desire to undergo the surgery even after his leaders counseled against it, or because he publicly advocated a similar course of action for others who are similarly situated when that may not be the best course of action in their individual cases.
  14. Hmmm. I guess the question is, do I have faith that my spirit is perfect and that my resurrected body will be perfect (whatever that means, and I think that, largely, it's beyond mortal ability to perceive and to comprehend), notwithstanding any of mortality's innumerable vicissitudes? And do I believe, whatever questions may defy answers in mortality, that God's Church is, indeed, led by Him? The Brethren may not have explicitly taught that gender dysphoria, same-sex attraction, and other such traits will be removed in the resurrection, but that's certainly the clear implication of The Family: A Proclamation to the World, and that document was signed by all of The Fifteen. And if such things are simply a few of mortality's innumerable vicissitudes, at bottom, they're not so very different from, say, Cerebral Palsy or any other condition: Both ... and all ... will be overcome in the Resurrection. I don't know anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who says to anyone else, "You don't have those feelings." (If they do, they should repent.) But, as I've said so many times, we may not be able to control what happens to us, but we can control how we react to it. Feelings are neither good nor bad; they simply are. it's what we do with them that counts. Would it take great courage and great faith and great patience to "wait upon the Lord" to deliver us from something so seemingly-all-consuming as gender dysphoria or SSA, especially given the world's attitude (and indeed, the attitude of some in the Church of Jesus Christ) toward such things? Without question. But, given our limited perspective, are we apt to be puzzled at the magnitude of the reward given by a Just Judge to one who struggled so valiantly and so mightily against such things and yet remained faithful? Again, without question. It's not only judgment that belongs to the Lord; mercy does, as well.
  15. I dunno. Perhaps I'll be the first person in the history of the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board to have such an honor bestowed upon him.