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RevTestament

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  1. I have little to add to this beyond what Robert has said, but am responding because I wish to add to what has been said below. Nevertheless, writing on gold plates is not even anachronistic in America. An example can be found sitting in the Peabody Museum of Harvard which contains some gold plates with some pictographic type of inscriptions, which iirc were pulled out of a cenote. Unfortunately, the Spaniard thirst for gold probably destroyed anything not well hidden. I am not a fan of the MesoAmerican theory. For one thing the BoM describes the Nephites being led to a land unknown to other nations. Mesoamerica doesn't seem to fit that description. There were other nations there. Not much about it fits the descriptions in the BoM. The woodland culture of N. America does fit in a lot of ways. It appeared in a land without other nations. The clothing fits. The jewelry made out of pearls fits. It became a "rich nation." It was a trading center, and received goods from all over N. America. And yes the barley fits. It is not some anachronism there. It is still called "little barley" in English it is so much like European barley. There was also an early grass used as we would use wheat, which could serve as a source for the unleavened bread of the Passover. The barley only looks anachronistic in Mesoamerica. There are many other points to make, but for now I am remaining silent on them.
  2. (cont) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come... And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Revelation 11:15-19. In the song of Moses: "And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die. And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more." Exodus 10:28-29. "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matthew 20:16. "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Daniel 12:12. In the song of Moses: " And the LORD said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether. Speak now in the ears of the people, and let every man borrow of his neighbor, and every woman of her neighbor, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold. And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people. And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts." Exodus 11:1-5. "Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying...they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house." Exodus 12:3. "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it." Exodus 12:5-7. The LORD sayeth: "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this self-same day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generation by an ordinance forever." Exodus 12:12-7. "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut to pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12: 3, 8-10. "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." Revelation 15:2-3. In Revelation 15 & 16 seven angels clothed in linen pour out seven plagues on the earth and sea. A noisome and grievous sore falls upon all those with the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Every living soul in the sea dies as in the blood of a dead man. Of these I say no more. "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and thy lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:4-5. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Revelation 20:7-8 (see also Ezekiel 38). This is a battle for heaven like unto the battle in which Satan was cast out of heaven with his followers before the world was, and after the man child was born. Revelation 12:7-9. Then this world shall cease to be. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28. John saith "and I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Revelation 21:1. Isaiah saith: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17. The earth shall be reborn in its spiritual and celestial glory as a new heaven in which Jesus shall reign for His kingdom is not of this world. But a new world is created, and there is a new beginning. The branches of His holy office and calling as the Son shall bear fruit. He shall receive the fullness of His inheritance as our God and Father. All power, wisdom, strength, honor, glory and, blessings be to Him. "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." Ephesians 1:18. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. Isaiah 9:6-7. "For thy maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Isaiah 54:5. So it is, and so shall it be, worlds without end. "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Revelation 16:15. Amen. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.
  3. (cont) Revelation continues with the second woe: And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates [peoples of Babylonia]. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk. Revelation 9: 13-20. In the song of Moses: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thy hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings." Exodus 10:21-23. "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Revelation 10:7. This angel stands on the sea and the earth, and has been revealed as one holding the keys of Adam, returning to finish the mystery from the little book. The remaining people shall know the power of the Lord. They will be given one last chance to harken unto His word. At the last of the second woe two great prophets shall prophesy concerning the very last days and the fullness of the gospel. "AND there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Revelation 11:1-2. In the song of Moses: "And Pharaoh called unto Moses, and said, Go ye, serve the LORD; only let your flocks and your herds be stayed: let your little ones also go with you. And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God. Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither." Exodus 10:24-26. In the law of Revelation: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt [being forbidden and akin to spiritual name of Rome, which is Babylon], where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half [same period Jesus' body was lifeless]... And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Revelation 11:3-12. In this day the holiest things of the Holy of Holies will be revealed, but the great day of at-one-ment is not yet fulfilled. In the song of Moses: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Exodus 10:27. Then "the second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly." Revelation 11:14.
  4. (cont) "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." Revelation 8:6. In Revelation the first four trumpets sound during the period of the reign of the image of the beast. When the first trumpet sounds comes hail and fire mingled with blood. A third part of the trees are burnt up. All green grass is burnt up. Revelation 8:7. In the song of Moses: "And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field. Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail." Exodus 9:23-26. "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood." Revelation 8:8. A great church will burn with fire, and be cast into the sea of peoples. We can know this is a church because when our Lord speaks of His holy mountain, he is speaking of His church. In the song of Moses: "And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron...." Exodus 9:27. "And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled. But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for they were not grown up." Exodus 9:31-32. "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." Revelation 8:10-11. This is a great religious leader who leads away a third of men. In the song of Moses: "And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD. And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? Let my people go, that they may serve me. Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast: And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field: And they shall fill thy houses, and the houses of all thy servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians; which neither thy fathers, nor thy fathers' fathers have seen, since the day they were upon the earth unto this day. And he turned himself, and went out from Pharaoh. And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?" Exodus 10:1-7. "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars." Revelation 8:12. This represents a third - those who seek to hold the rod. Through Zechariah our Lord prophesied: "...smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones [after the Lord our shepherd is crucified the Lord turns to the little ones, his lambs - not those who raise themselves up]. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Zechariah 13:7-9. For the refiner takes the rough ore of the earth, and carefully refines it in the fire until he can see his reflection in the pure, precious metal. In the song of Moses: "And Moses and Aaron were brought again unto Pharaoh: and he said unto them, Go, serve the LORD your God: but who are they that shall go? And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD. And he said unto them, Let the LORD be so with you, as I will let you go, and your little ones: look to it; for evil is before you." Exodus 10:8-10. "Not so: go now ye that are men and serve the LORD; for that ye did desire. And they were driven out from Pharaoh's presence." Exodus 10:11. Then an angel flies through heaven announcing the last three angels to sound with three woes by saying "...Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" Revelation 8:13. The tables are turned when the fifth angel sounds: "And he opened the bottomless pit." Revelation 9:2. Locusts arise from the smoke of the pit which are commanded to hurt only men "which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Revelation 9:4. In the song of Moses we find: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thy hand over the land of Egypt for the locusts, that they may come up upon the land of Egypt, and eat every herb of the land, even all that the hail hath left." Exodus 10:12. "And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such. For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt." Exodus 10:14-15.
  5. I luv ya man, but ya don't know what ya speak. I never said that God will force men to follow, so don't put words in my mouth. I say the opposite like you do. That would violate our free agency. You don't even realize that man has been living the plagues of Egypt since Adam. This is not to force man to accept God, but He does show us signs in His battle against Satan because He loves us, and wants to teach us to follow Him. I will take up the Song of Moses from this point to the end, because it is quite obvious from here on out: When the seventh seal is opened there is silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. At the start of the seventh seal an angel servant with a golden censer walketh the seven steps to the altar, and stands at the altar before the throne; "and there was given unto him much incense [that he die not: Lev. 16:13], that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth. At the specified time the silence will be broken: "and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." Revelation 8:5. In the song of Moses: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go? Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die. He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses: And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field." Exodus 9:13-21. "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:13
  6. I understand your issues with spiritual authority. Man certainly has faults exercising it. But to abandon it is a dangerous proposition. That is one of the points of this thread. Without spiritual authority man goes rudderless. Group think seems to take over, and we end up with mass genocide - the fascist movement of the Nazis, and on the opposing side the communist movements in Russia, China, etc. When people do not value each other as individuals, and do not follow the command of God to love each other, things go far astray. "Right" becomes whatever the group wants. That has never worked to date. We live in a system that has worked very well. Yet people don't realize it is because of the Judeo-Christian value system that we have been so blessed. Isaiah 61:7 7 ¶ For your shame ye shall have adouble; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess bthe double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. Christ has never failed man. Man has failed Christ. Men go astray. It is not his fault. The second He goes silent, it seems, men start going astray. They kowtow to the pressures of society, to personal or selfish things, etc. Thanks for your input.
  7. God is the ultimate embodiment of talking softly and carrying a big stick vis-a-vis the plagues of Egypt the world will see.
  8. Those inconvenient scriptures....when will man learn to live by them? Have no worry, the hierarchies will be dismantled. But it won't be by us. God will replace them with His hierarchy in the millennial reign of Christ. The world will be ruled by the iron rod. It is still hierarchy, and I am happy to take my place in it, and learn. I imagine New Jerusalem will be such a city, but is for when the world begins to learn these principles.
  9. ... says he who wants to dismantle all other hierarchical structures. There is no scripture in the Canonical works to support your contention. The keys lie generally in the members of the priesthood. Any priesthood member can exercise them. God Himself will prove your contention wrong. Doctrine and Covenants 84:19 19 And this greater apriesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the bkey of the cmysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the dknowledge of God. Doctrine and Covenants 107:18-19 18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the akeys of all the spiritual blessings of the church— and you are wrong about the Nephites. They did have a hierarchical order even if they had no king even when peace reined. and you know nothing of the order of the city of Enoch - you are just suppositioning.
  10. Life is not about fairness or complaining about it. These structures are the best man has ever encountered, and have resulted in the western society being the most scientifically advanced and economically advanced the world has ever seen. Should I complain about unfairness when I can go to the toilet in the comfort of my home? Or cook food in a matter of minutes which was stored in the convenience of my refrigerator so that I don't have to go out and hunt or pick it every day? Or I don't have to wash my clothes in some dirty bucket of water? I have what I need to be quite comfortable...more comfortable than Yeshua was or even the Israelite kings. Should I squawk about the body God gave me? Maybe God gives some more to overcome because they received more that they asked for? (see your scripture from Alma below) Yet people are all up in arms because conservatives won't call certain other groups Zhe or Zhem. It's absolute ludicrousy. Life will never be about equal outcome. That is not the heavenly model God wants us to learn. The Church was given the opportunity to live a ZIon economy, and wasn't able to do it. My brother suffered through several years of poverty, until he invented a medical device with my cousin. In a world of equal outcome - no hierarchical structures - he would not have gone through that poverty, and then risked anything to invent a new helpful medical device (copied by many other companies). People just won't put themselves through all that out of the goodness of their heart with no promise of reward. Reward based systems with hierarchical structures are here because they work - better than anything else in history. Tearing them down out of some vague notion of being fairer is a recipe for complete failure and utter disaster, which has been shown by several countries which attempted it. We far surpassed the USSR model and it is no longer the USSR. China gave up on it. My brother is proof that relatively equal opportunity already exists in this country. That is why it has economically surpassed all others in the history of the world. Perhaps you are confusing opportunity with outcome... Just to be clear. I do not wish to defy the apostles. That is not the subject of this thread. It really is more about how the Church reacts to those who see things a little differently than Church leaders have taught. As Alma pointed out there doesn't seem to be a limit on who the Lord will reveal the mysteries of God to... other than the desire of their heart. The keys to the mysteries of God do not lie with the Church presidency... they lie within the Melchizedek priesthood. I agree with Alma completely. Thank you for your consideration.
  11. Fair enough. Thank you Ahab, but I don't know if you really understand the issues I am posing. I am not really asking you to judge me as to whether or not I should be excommunicated. I was just using myself as an example for an issue I think the Church has. I think the Church can be more judgmental of its members who speak up than other persons it says were given truth - like Muhammed. Muhammed did give a certain order to things, but I do not consider him to be a teacher of truth - far from it. So Muhammed will get spoken of well, and me? Or how about the other guy who speaks up? Or writes a book disagreeing with certain doctrine? Should we excommunicate that person? Is it a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few?
  12. There is no promise that one won't die. Most of us on this earth die - with few exceptions to date - often from diseases or various maladies. There is no promise that we won't get diseases. There is a fair amount of air pollution in cities, and second-hand smoke is enough to cause cancer. I think the promise is not meant to apply to heavenly kingdoms but is a general promise that those who follow will be able to do the Lord's work. It doesn't mean a paraplegic will be cured and be able to walk. It doesn't mean I will never faint. It means the Lord will bless us to go about and do his work without being stopped by pain - until our appointed time is come. I have a son with my flat feet - even worse - surgery was recommended. He has had pain. He went on a mission, and has been able to do the work without undue pain. I think you are right - we will not suffer pain and maladies in the heavenly kingdoms in our immortal state. I don't see any bad advice. I interpret the meat thing as saying to eat meat sparingly except in times of famine or drought. How would you eat meat sparingly then when there is nothing else? I believe modern medicine has found support for the assertions of the word of wisdom that certain things "are not good."
  13. I see the Church being patterned after the order of heaven. So, I do not really question the pattern. However, one point of the video is that those who best represent or teach certain values are those who will gain approval and move up in the hierarchy. What happens if a new teaching or value comes along? Can that hierarchy make room for it? So you are saying that this Church has the same power as God does. Is this earthly hierarchy omnipotent? Has it made errors? What should it do with those who disagree in some way? I disagree with certain things past leaders have said, but I still support leaders in their callings. I have never challenged a calling. So, where do I fit? Should I be excommunicated? Currently the teaching seems to be that as long as I don't try to lead others away into some new church that I am OK, but there seem to be others excommunicated who simply wrote a book the brethren didn't like. I don't buy the paradigm that when the president has spoken that the thinking is done. I enjoy thinking. I value my agency. I enjoy pursuing truth, and I am not terribly shy about where I see truth. When I speak truth, I am not trying to overthrow leaders. I am just speaking truth as I see it. Should that subject me to discipline? Should that bring ridicule upon me? I think these types of questions are why the Church says it is losing its best and brightest. Bright people don't want to be ostracized for holding a different opinion about some canonical scripture or about Church history. So the question arises, is the Church going to continue on its path? Or is there room for change? Should the Church change?
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