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      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis


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About Oliblish

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    Newbie: Without form, and void

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  1. I agree that the Book of Mormon is referring to the Tower of Babel. Joseph Smith clearly believed this as well. In the Wentworth Letter Joseph Smith writes: Wentworth Letter contents can be found in the July 2002 Ensign here: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/the-wentworth-letter?lang=eng
  2. First, I want to change the question. Asking if we support same sex marriage because it is the law of the land is basically asking if we support the law of the land. A better question would be: "Do you think same sex marriage should be the law of the land?" My answer to that would be yes. I have a cousin that grew up as a gay teen in the 1970's. We are about the same age but I don't remember seeing him much growing up. I do remember in the early 1980's at a family reunion my aunts and uncles talking about whether he should be allowed to come to family reunions. The decision was made that he was not allowed to come. I remember having an uneasy feeling about that. I guess it is kind of obvious that he left the church. I can't really blame him for that. He has been with the same partner now for over 30 years. The attitudes of my extended family towards the situation have slowly changed over the decades. My cousin and his partner have both been showing up to family reunions for the last 10 years and they are both just as welcome as anyone else. When the law changed in Utah that allowed gay marriage, my cousin was elated. He and his partner dropped everything and got married that day. He sent us pictures in email. Many of the family that used to ban him from reunions in the past offered heart-felt congratulations to him and his new husband. Attitudes toward LGBT men and women have changed radically over my lifetime and I don't see the trend changing any time soon.
  3. According to CNN exit polls, the Mormon vote came in like this: Trump 56% Clinton 28% Other 16% So it was Trump over Clinton 2 to 1. I am not included in the 56%. http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls
  4. This would describe me as well.
  5. Does implying what sex you are attracted to make a talk sexual? If a deacon mentioned during a talk that he hoped to marry a woman in the temple after returning from his mission, would that be a sexual talk?
  6. I listened to the recording as well. These people had read things on the internet about Joseph Smith and the church that they found shocking. I feel many of the members were still holding out hope that the church leaders would tell them that these things were not true. Instead the leaders confirmed that much of it was true. Remember this was before the essays had come out and it was unclear to many members where the church stood on these issues, if they had heard of them at all. Also, the area president prohibited the members from talking about the meeting with anyone and instructed Stake Presidents and Bishops to interview each member that attended the meeting to decide whether they were in or out of the church. So they were pressured to make up their minds quickly. Hans says told his bishop he needed more time to make that kind of decision. These new history volumes are surely part of the "inoculation" program that has been designed to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.
  7. After reading 29 pages of comments on this subject, I am wondering what would happen if the policy were reversed tomorrow. Would the people staunchly defending it today decide that it wasn't that big of an issue after all? Probably. I think there would be all sorts of post hoc arguments of how the old policy was appropriate for the time but now the new policy makes sense too. I think that for some this discussion is more about getting in line with the policies that come from the general authorities than actually evaluating how these policies affect members and their families.
  8. Is the Word of Wisdom a commandment? According to the scriptures it is not (D&C 89:2). We have modern prophets saying it is a commandment. In this case it seems we take the word of modern leaders over what it says in the scriptures.
  9. I think most of the older generation in the church identifies more with the left column than the right. When they hear the more recent quotes from the rights side, it is in one ear and out the other. Confirmation bias in action. I have a gay cousin that came out to his family when he was about 20 in the early 80s. His father was told by leaders that it was his fault because he didn't have a good relationship with his son. Like most gay members he left the church. I look back and feel really bad about how the whole family treated him. He was forbidden from coming to family reunions. Things have changed quite a bit and I would have to credit the church a little bit for the changes listed above. I believe that if another column were added to this chart in another 40 years, the changes between now and the future will be at least as great as the difference between the two existing columns, probably greater. It is just sad that positive change is so slow in the church, especially when there are so many people being hurt every day. I think it is a good example of how major shifts happen in the church. The leaders provide two contradictory messages. The older generation listen to the old message and the younger generation only hear the new message. Both ways of thinking exist at the same time for decades. As the older generation dies off, the old message fades away and the new one takes over. I have seen this happen with topics like birth control, women working outside the home, blacks and the Temple/Priesthood, etc.
  10. So is it possible that we are not in the true church. We might just be in the right church for us right now for reasons known only to the Lord. We will then be led to the actual truth later. How can we know this isn't the case? And why can we know that when there are others with similar spiritual confirmations that can't? This is the problem I see. When we try to explain what is meant by the confirmations of others we need to realize that those explanations could just as easily apply to us.
  11. Ok, I can see how the elephant analogy kind of fits in. There are good and true things in lots of churches even though we don't agree on everything. But how are we different then? Are we just members of another church that has some partial truths like all of the other churches? This is not what I hear at testimony meeting. Everyone says they know they are in the right church because of the spiritual witness they have received. Others only have small pieces of the truth but we have the complete picture - the whole elephant. But why don't others recognize that they only see a portion of the truth when they think they have it all figured out? Should we think that we would recognize it if we were in their position? Are we in their position? It is easy to see the error in others thinking but difficult for us to admit that we really don't have any reason to believe that we know more than anyone else.
  12. I read the story about the elephant and I still don't understand either. How do you think that relates to spiritual confirmations?
  13. Assuming that only one fruit can be "the best," how can we be sure that it is our fruit that is the best? Most of us have never tasted all of the other fruits. Have you sincerely prayed about all of these other religions with true intent? I think all of the people in the video would say that their fruit is the best. Is there a way we can actually compare the different fruits to see which one is actually "the best?" I have had it explained to me that people outside the church can feel the spirit to bear testimony of the partial truths that they understand while we are the only ones who have the full truth. This may be so, but how do we know that we aren't the ones with a partial truth and someone else has the full truth? No matter how I look at it I don't see any way to know which of all these testimonies lead us to the best fruit.
  14. I agree. I think the video would be much better if they didn't display the name of the person's religion at the bottom of the screen during the testimony.
  15. My mission president was from Idaho and owned a potato farm. He would tell us stories about the migrant Mexican workers he would hire to work on the farm. He knew most of his workers didn't have the proper paperwork. This was in the early 80's and it was very common for Mexicans who needed work to cross the border illegally and work on farms. It was the only way the potato farms could operate. (I am not sure if this has changed much in recent years or not). For the most part the government would look the other way because it was a benefit to the economy, or perhaps for other reasons. I think it may be preferable if there were some sort of temporary worker program that would make this sort of arrangement legal, but sometimes the added bureaucracy makes things worse rather than better. There are lots of laws broken every day that are not enforced. I could probably be cited for dozens of traffic violations every time I drive to work. (Stopping a few inches past a stop sign, going 5 mph over the limit, etc.) Should a group of children running a lemonade stand be cited for operating a business without a license? They probably don't even have proper food handling permits. Are garage sales legal? Should they charge sales tax and report their income to the state? Do people pay the proper social security taxes and file the proper paperwork for babysitters, house cleaners, or yard workers? If I buy a bag of chips at a gas station in Nevada and then bring it to Utah, I am supposed to file and pay Utah use taxes. The list is endless. I don't think it is reasonable to suddenly change immigration enforcement and start to track down and deport people who have been in the country for years who came in at a time when the laws were widely unenforced. I think it is reasonable to make changes to the system, but it should be done in a thoughtful and deliberate way, taking into consideration the lives of the people who it will affect.