Jump to content

churchistrue

Members
  • Content count

    340
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

216 Excellent

About churchistrue

  • Rank
    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male

Recent Profile Visitors

589 profile views
  1. Which scriptures would you use to support that?
  2. Is it sometimes better to leave the church?

    Unless you're using testimony in a different way than most people use it, it wasn't that leaving Mormonism helped him regain his testimony. I think what happened was that leaving Mormonism and the perspectives and maturity he gained during that time led him to view Mormonism differently and accept the things that were frustrating to him. I shouldn't speak for him, but if you listen to him speak and read his book, I think he has a testimony and view of the church is very similar to mine. A post faith-crisis-faith-reconstruction kind of perspective. I went through this process without leaving the church, but you could say I was mentally out even though I was still in.
  3. I agree with the rigor critique. Cook's a smart guy, but he's not an academic. And it's a very large, ambitious piece. I think he does about as well as you could possibly do as a non-academic. And I think an academic could polish it up, with more research and references and properly footnoted, in a way that you would end up saying that is a solid, rigorous academic treatment of the subject, and it wouldn't be materially different. As for the critique of him being dismissive, I've followed him quite a bit, and I don't get that sense at all. Compared to others in this field, either on the Mo side, the Exmo side, or in the middle, I think he is quite humble and genuine.
  4. Has there been a discussion of this? I looked for a thread to bump but didn't find one. https://mormonlgbtquestions.com/ This article has been compared to Lester Bush's article on race and priesthood published in Dialogue that had great effect on Pres. Kimball. The article is very long but I guess he is condensing it for publication in Dialogue. I did a review of the article http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/bryce-cook-mormon-church-gay-marriage/ What I like about Bryce's article, and Bryce in general, is that he's smart and level headed and supportive of the church, even though he has strongly opposing views on LGBT issues. I think the case he presents is pretty strong. And given the angst over this issue and the rising support among members, I see the church moving on this issue within 30 years.
  5. How an Ahistorical Book of Mormon Can Still Be Scripture

    Among the ahistoricalists, I probably take more of an extreme version in terms of how clear and direct the voice of the Lord is in this. I look at it as a process that's more similar to say Handel composing The Messiah. Human creativity with a divine influence. How much is human and how much is divine is never clearly understood. To say it's a purely human work would be wrong. And to say it's a purely dictated from God would not be right either. I guess in the end, we know it was from God when we observe empirically its power to transform lives and bring them to Christ. We know it's from man when it includes error or cultural views that are wrong or harmful.
  6. How an Ahistorical Book of Mormon Can Still Be Scripture

    I think people use Harry Potter and such to intentionally make the inspired fiction theory seem ridiculous. Why not compare it to Job or the allegory of Zenos or the parable of the Good Samaritan. All those are scripture and considered very powerful stories despite not being historical.
  7. Videos from Fair Conference

    Thanks. For some reason I thought the videos were available immediately but it took the transcripts a while to get posted. Bummer. I was hoping to listen while I did my honey do's today. But I know it's volunteer organization and these things take time.
  8. Videos from Fair Conference

    I assume it works the same way as last year. If you pay to get the streaming, you get access to the videos. If not, you don't. Is that right? Are the videos available now? If not, when? Thanks.
  9. "FairMormon is mean!" - time for retraction?

    FAIR is ultimately judged not just on official publications but by other publications, online writings, facebook posts, posts on this board, etc, of the primary contributors of FAIR and also the people who are using FAIR to argue against others. The thought leaders of FAIR can dictate the tone and affect culture. Dan Peterson was referenced above. I'm not sure if he has any official affiliation with FAIR, but he dominated the culture and set the tone for many years. He's the keynote speaker at the FAIR conference every year. Whether or not there's an official connection, it doesn't matter, he represents FAIR. In my humble opinion, FAIR, judged by this criteria, could easily be deemed very "mean" in the online heyday of this board, circa about 10 years ago. That said, I perceive a very strong undertaking to improve this reputation. I don't know how long it's been going on, but I definitely perceive that now and the last couple years. Bringing in Grant Hardy and Patrick Mason last year was huge. The tone of this board has improved significantly. A lot of the worst offenders have moved on, and a softer, gentler breed has replaced them. I perceive a significant softening of Dr. Peterson, as well. So, my point here is that I think FAIR is improving, and I appreciate it. But it's borderline absurd, imho, to claim the negative tone and meanness was never there.
  10. Recent Survey (via Jana Reiss)

    This perspective seems really out of touch with what's happening in the church. Normal, regular, active members are changing how they feel on this. And check in with the college crowd. I have kids in this category. They and their active LDS peers nearly universally are taking sides with their gay friends on this issue.
  11. Recent Survey (via Jana Reiss)

    I think a lot of it is personal experience. This is just my guess, so the actual data may not support it, but it seems like the instances of gay people coming "out" in the church are skyrocketing the last few years. I assume before that gay Mormons stayed in the closet and tried to live straight lives more often. Or maybe my observation is just way off. If you polled the same people "Do you personally know a gay Mormon?" That figure might also have jumped from about 26% to about 37%. When we know a gay Mormon, we see how unfair it is. We usually can see it's nothing they chose. We can see they're a good person. And we start to empathize with what a difficult life they've had and will have if they attempt to stay Mormon. That's also probably a lot why Millennials are so for it. They almost all have a gay friend. My kids do.
  12. Reel Infants- Should We Stay or Should We Go?

    Right. I'm extremely suspicious of those "church broke up my family" stories. Almost every one that starts that way, when you hear more detail, it's like "nah, you broke up your family, the church didn't."
  13. Reel Infants- Should We Stay or Should We Go?

    I listened to the podcast. I was a bit disappointed. I was hoping the conversation would be more about what good the church offers people that are in that Middle Way category. Instead it was a lot of ranting about how the church is awful and should be shut down. The only discussion point was on whether or not someone who thinks the church is bad should stay to help others that are getting hurt. That line of thinking I think is pretty narrow and doesn't describe most of the people in the Middle Way, who are attending because it's good for them. I stay primarily because it enriches my life. The desire to help be a part of positive change within the church is an important one to me, but secondary in terms of why I stay.
  14. Reel Infants- Should We Stay or Should We Go?

    I don't like the term NOM, but we have to use some kind of labels to communicate. I will call it as someone post faith crisis in faith reconstruction. I describe those in faith reconstruction as likely not believing literally in certain traditional LDS concepts like exclusivity, scripture historicity, and some of the supernatural events described in church history, but who believe in the power of the LDS faith to transform lives and give spiritual guidance, and for the LDS church to be a good place to worship and be part of the Body of Christ, and for the LDS church to be a powerful force for good in the world. I'm going on 10 years now, post faith crisis in process of faith reconstruction. I have been active in online forums during that time, have dedicated a blog to it, and currently am writing a book on the subject. I've spent some time thinking about this subject. I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but I've heard the same debates for many years. Whether or not the NOM position is sustainable or whether or not you think it's valuable, probably depends on how you view a few items. 1. How much harm the church does and how much good the church does. How much of that is institutional/central vs cultural/local. And let's really look at the harm. Let's not look at the outrage on social media, sometimes manufactured by those with ill intentions towards the church. Let's look at the actual harm. 2. How possible is change. The things that are harmful, is there potential for change? How fast can that change come? Can I use my influence to affect change? Or is it futile to even try? 3. How possible it for me to shift from literal to metaphorical concepts, when it comes to scripture, church foundational events, doctrine, everything. 4. (I don't really like to admit this but to be fair I should) "Privilege" or social/familial motivation to stay. For example, I'm white, married with kids, no LGBT+ issues with any kids, upper middle class, from pioneer stock, living in Utah County. Certainly that would be considered a "privileged" position in the church that makes it easier to stay and more motivated to transform my mind to get on the right side of items 1-3 above. So, every individual has a different view of these things. I personally, feel the church does some harm but also a lot of good, which outweighs the harm. Further, I believe the church is capable of change and to progress to improve on the things that currently are causing people harm. It wasn't easy for me to pick up on the whole nuanced thing, but after spending some time working on it, it really speaks to me. I'm invigorated with a new view of the BOM and other scripture and church and scripture study is rewarding to me again. I think the Church is a great organization that can get even better, and I think I can be part of that change.
  15. Are cynical critics driving away Mormons?

    Are cynics driving away the Mo's? Probably. But I don't have a good solution for you. My perception: Circa 2010, when this board was at its height, LDS Apologists had the upper hand. Knowledgeable people online wanting to talk about these topics were pretty even in numbers and on the LDS side there was more experience and organization. Now, it's the exact opposite. Knowledgeable people online wanting to talk about LDS Apologetics issues are vastly weighted to the critical side. A lot of the good LDS posters have retreated from the common discussion forums due to this, making it worse. I would like to see this place endure as a place that's weighted to the faithful side of things and where LDS apologists feel comfortable congregating. I don't have any great suggestions for you. It sucks to have to moderate things heavily, I'm sure. And if you just start banning all the critics, the place will become an echo chamber and uninteresting and will die that way. Good luck. You have my sympathies.
×