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hope_for_things

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Everything posted by hope_for_things

  1. Yes, I agree with you there. It was interesting reading about how Michael Quinn believes that they re-initiated all the original anointed quorum members in May of 1843. I wish we had more information about all of these years, with everything being so secret. I think we're still trying to piece together how everything was connected, and the impact of the different events, like the John C. Bennett issues, and even the timeline around Hyrum Smith opposing polygamy and then embracing it later. I wonder how accurate Brigham Young's later recollection on how he sold Hyrum on the idea of polygamy was? Its all fascinating, and I hope more journals come to light in the future.
  2. For sure, I'm grateful to be of average height. Although, it seems like the Big & Tall clothes are always on the clearance racks at the stores I go to. You probably can find some killer deals if you're a savvy shopper, at least on some of the items.
  3. I see what you're saying for sure. A good portion of it is aligned with my way of thinking, I'm grateful for our exchanges because you've opened me up to a lot of thinking I wouldn't likely have encountered through other avenues, which I think is awesome. Actually, I'm really grateful to have been born Mormon and to have grown up so orthodox in my thinking and to have experienced a crisis of faith and to have been wrestling with ideas like these over the past few years. It have learned so much and I'm continuing to learn, and I honestly am glad for how these experiences have molded me in ways I couldn't have otherwise imagined. I agree with you that theology is a paradigm to describe experience, and I like you point about God being a creation of us humans as mediated through language and imagination, and its an interesting point that in the Mormon tradition of God as an exalted human, that this whole idea becomes somewhat circular. Where I differ with you still is that I have a strong impulse to say that not all paradigms and beliefs are created equally, and some paradigms can arguably create much better outcomes for the average human and for the prospects of life as we know it. And as you know, I'm not comfortable viewing religious paradigms through the same lens as scientific ones, even though I recognize that science isn't a perfect process, I see some significant differences and benefits to it in many contexts, especially over and above religious thought experiments and speculation about the nature of God. Although these kinds of speculations about God can be quite enjoyable to participate in.
  4. I agree, we're seeing a much more ecumenical approach these days. As examples, the way President Nelson is meeting with key leaders around the world like the Pope or the New Zealand president. For the Pope, can you imagine when we used to have past church leaders preaching about the evils of Catholicism, and now we have a President shaking hands with and promoting the meeting as a sign of the legitimacy of our church. Very different times these days.
  5. I don't think that is right. The wearing of the garment was tied to the endowment, not polygamy per se. Not all who received the endowment practiced polygamy; even among Joseph's closest confidantes in his 'select group'--a great example is Hyrum Smith, who was one of the last to be informed about polygamy. Most of those who were initiated into the anointed quorum were also brought into the polygamy secret, that is what I was saying, not that wearing the garments were directly tied to polygamy, but more indirectly. I also think there was an association around the garments and polygamy. The Fairmormon comments don't square with what I've read from reputable historians, they are a little too one sided, although carefully worded, as you can see from a typical FAIR post. Here is an essay from the Journal of Mormon History, in case you're interested on more about the anointed quorum, a well written essay by Devery Anderson. https://www.jstor.org/stable/23289177?read-now=1&seq=10#page_scan_tab_contents
  6. One thing I like about reading the concepts for God that James had developed is you can see he's really thought through these things very carefully. At the same time I recognize that he's influenced by his environment just like all of the rest of us are. In that sense I really see God as the theological creation of humans as they attempt to articulate their experiences as filtered through evolved human brains.
  7. I'd never even heard of it either, but apparently we've been deprived an obedience to a higher standard we didn't know existed, while all these millenials are either keeping their garments on or planning to when they get married.
  8. I agree that finding a workable framework is a quest we are all on with this life journey. I think that it changes throughout our lives, whether or not we are aware of the change, and I also am convinced that change is the only way that we can grow. One of the quotes of Joseph Smith that I've been thinking about recently is this idea of the truth being manifest through our proving of contraries. I think there is a truism here, but that it lies in the wrestle between different perspectives. Its only by seeing the different perspectives and really attempting to understand them, that we can find truth. And from my experience these truths are not going to tell us which side is correct, that would just get us back to the binary proposition in the first place. The truth lies somewhere else, somewhere in the wrestle. Its not a static truth either, but a contextual truth. And its not the ultimate truth, but just another truth like another step on a path, there will always be greater truths to be discovered, and those likely will be manifest by more proving of contraries, as this process needs to repeat itself over and over again. For the example from Bernard Gui, I'm always pleased to hear of stories where people turn their lives around. How wonderful that is. I however, don't like it when we give all the credit to a certain system as being the reason that person was able to turn their life around. That sounds too much like a packaged sales pitch to me. People all around the world are influenced by all kinds of frameworks for the good, and its wonderful to see. I just think its going a little too far, and unfortunately this is part of the Mormon tradition that I think overreaches into an uncomfortable territory for me.
  9. Hmm... that emphasis of "reasonably can be worn" seems like it can be very broadly interpreted. Interesting how things change with the times.
  10. I didn't know that, it could have come in handy. I also wish I had known about the new garments coming out for men about 6 months ago when I bought a bunch of the old style. I'm guessing they won't allow me to return these now.
  11. Can you share a link, I may be interested in the new style.
  12. I doubt the church breaks even on the costs to manufacture garments. I imagine they subsidize the cost for members to keep the cost low. It just makes sense to me that they get out of the garment manufacturing business.
  13. So, if they heard it from an anti source, why would they believe it?
  14. You’re not shopping around much then. Similar style briefs in a 5-8 pack at Costco are cheaper per item. I’m guessing they are way more comfortable too. I don’t think the church can compete with the cost or quality of the big manufacturers.
  15. In the quorum of the anointed, I believe most of those individuals initiated to that very select group were brought into the polygamy secret as part of the process. There may be some exceptions, but the two went hand in hand during Joseph’s life.
  16. Yes, thanks, that sounds familiar. I guess I wonder why this myth has continued to be understood this way if no church leaders have talked about it for decades. It’s not like most millennials are reading old materials where they might come across this concept.
  17. Amazing! Peculiar people is definitely an understatement for ideas like those. 😆
  18. I think that everyone who was initiated into the anointed quorum during the early time period was also brought into the polygamy secret, so I'm thinking the two things were fairly synonymous. I know some historians have talked about one of the purposes of this quorum and reasons Joseph was inspired by masonry was because of its secret structure with penalties for violation. I think this was all tied directly to polygamy and was used as a mechanism for keeping it secret.
  19. Agreed. I don't think that was part of Joseph's original vision at all for wearing the garment. I seem to recall reading that one of the reasons he wasn't wearing them at Carthage, was because people would tie the wearing of garments directly with polygamy and he didn't want to be caught as a polygamist. I can't remember where I read that specifically though.
  20. Wow, really. I'm glad I never picked up on that. If you can find a link to a quote, that would be great, I'd love to read it.
  21. They've done a very nice job making their survey results publicly available and open to further analysis in case you're interested into digging deeper. https://thenextmormons.org/ I know some people have speculated that the lower numbers for Millenials on the sex question are because many of them may be single still and not have any sexual experiences yet, but that doesn't explain the Gen X phenomenon as most of them would be older. The doctor results are strange as well. I'm surprised at the results of the exercise answer as well, considering isn't that a comment they specifically mention at the temple recommend interview that you can remove them for certain activities. Who would want to be sweating up a storm running a marathon or playing a basketball game wearing garments?
  22. Its just such a weird thing because I've never even heard it talked about that you shouldn't remove them to have sex. If I were crafting that list for Jana's survey I wouldn't have even thought of that as something to include on the list. Where did that idea come from do you think? Did some old church leader make comments about that or is it written somewhere in a book or any obscure reference somewhere to your knowledge?
  23. I don't know, it really boggles my mind. Wouldn't wearing only half of the two piece garments also be in violation of the correct way to wear the garments though, for those people that are trying to follow the rules? So you just take off the bottom half because you're trying to follow the spirit of the law and keep the top on?
  24. Ok, so I looked this up, from The Next Mormons: The third answer from the top in response to the question of when people think its acceptable to remove their garments. When having sexual relations, only 51% of Millenials and 58% of GenX members think its acceptable to remove them? Thats a lot of really boring sex happening out there. I'm still pretty shocked about these results.
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