• Announcements

    • Nemesis

      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


hope_for_things last won the day on November 22 2016

hope_for_things had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

1,231 Excellent

About hope_for_things

  • Rank
    Separates Water & Dry Land

Recent Profile Visitors

817 profile views
  1. Good to hear you've read those books. I guess we interpret the data differently then, that's fine.
  2. Dictionary.com defines privy as "participating in the knowledge of something private or secret", it doesn't say this knowledge must be obtained through first hand witness. I listed a few books that I've read with knowledge of things that were private and events that can be corroborated and are highly respected by Mormon historians. Of course, if you choose to deny them just because they conflict with your personal paradigm about how you think things should work, that sounds a lot like putting your head in the sand.
  3. Yes, then it seems that you admit you have faith in the experiences of others, as you specifically mention prophets and apostles. Surely you would also agree that you have faith in the experiences of others as well, think about family, friends, trusted coworkers and companions, political leaders, etc. If you believe the experiences of others outside of church leaders, then can you explain where you draw a line with respect to believing in the experiences of others? I would ask the same question with your assertion of gossip. How do you determine what is fact and fiction? One mans gossip is another mans truth.
  4. I would highly recommend reading some good historical writing that shows many examples of these politics at play. The Arrington biography is the most recent, but the David O. McKay book by Prince is also a great one, as well as the Kimball biography by his son Ed for more recent examples.
  5. Huh? I thought Mormons took pride in accepting things on faith in the experiences of others? Are you saying firsthand experience is the only kind of testimony that is reliable?
  6. Personality still has a huge effect, I think the Priesthood ban and the drama that played out over a couple decades is one example where one or two hold outs in the quorum kept the church from moving forward timely. I also just read Prince's biography of Leonard Arrington, and there are multiple examples where politics come into play, where leaders who supported his efforts privately, but wouldn't stand up for him publicly were controlled by those with stronger personalities in the quorum. Its not always about seniority, but that plays a part as well. The whole seniority thing seems like more of a tradition, and doesn't have any doctrinal precedent that newer apostles should have less influence than more senior apostles. Lots of power plays and politics are going on behind the scenes.
  7. Interesting, Eyring doesn't come across as a strong personality type either.
  8. Interesting and well written post on this topic. http://rationalfaiths.com/open-stories-foundation-true-non-profit/
  9. Hmm.. I'm thinking after checking a few web sites out that the 30% number I had stuck in my head was a worldwide estimate, rather than a US activity estimate.
  10. I would agree that the specific dynamics are different, but there are similarities and the political nature of the hierarchy that I've read about has convinced me that there have been multiple power plays in the past. Not just the first succession crisis with BY, but the next two or three deaths of the president, along with other issues with how they consider seniority, whether seniority should continue to be the method (some leaders were pushing for a change there), who's in charge when the president is ailing, senior apostle power vs. junior ones, coalitions that seem to form in the quorum, and all kinds of dynamics of a political nature.
  11. Yes, so has activity fallen similarly for the Utah population? If activity is 30% now in the USA, but it used to be 40-50% (lets say 45%), then thats a 33% decline in activity rate from 1992 to 2015. If the current activity in Utah is 55%, by applying that 33% decline in reverse that would mean the Utah activity rate in 1992 would have been 73% activity in 1992. Does that seem like a reasonable ratio to you for 1992 vs today for Utah?
  12. Wow, somehow I missed this as I thought it was monthly. Thats a low bar for activity.
  13. Is it possible that this quote was inaccurately stating what an active member is doing. I've always heard that activity is defined as attendance once per month in sacrament meeting. I know the quote says weekly attendance, but isn't it possible that they are misquoting the data rather than reporting on a different statistic all together? I agree with you that active members would miss quite a few meetings for various reasons, so I'm wondering if this quote was supposed to represent the activity rate as traditionally defined which is one sacrament meeting per month.
  14. Learning about this was fascinating to me the first time I read about it. I don't think most members are aware that we've had counselors in the FP that weren't ordained as apostles in the past. Or even that we've had apostles in the past that weren't officially part of the quorum of the 12. Lots of scenarios that might seem quite odd looked at through a modern lens.
  15. I think they've also delegated more since those days. In the past, I believe all of the apostles served on boards of directors for different corporations that the church had investments in, and now that is no longer one of their responsibilities from my understanding. But I don't know the specifics. Who's really running the show, are there powerful positions below the apostles that are pulling the major strings behind the scenes? I know people speculate this about our President in the US Government all the time, and I wonder if this is also possible within the LDS hierarchy.