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hope_for_things

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About hope_for_things

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  1. hope_for_things

    Whispering of the Spirit

    I've found mindfulness practice has helped me to be more aware of things I'm thinking and feeling. Personally I don't think these thoughts come from an external force though.
  2. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Sorry, but I can't see a productive path forward here. Baby steps towards a better understanding is what is needed to start to look at scripture differently and I can't get you from your current perspective to where I am at on a message board thread. If interested I would recommend reading these books which are pretty friendly for more conservative believers, but will open up some good questions and inquiry. https://www.amazon.com/Misreading-Scripture-Western-Eyes-Understand/dp/0830837825/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1539987307&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=misreading+scripture+with+western+eyes&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272039/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539987335&sr=8-1&keywords=the+bible+tells+me+so+by+peter+enns
  3. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Sometimes when people ask me questions I get the impression that they aren't seeking to understand my perspective, but instead are seeking to find points of disagreement. I'm getting that vibe here.
  4. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Interestingly, in that podcast I linked to, they spoke a lot about collective salvation, which I found to be surprisingly similar to much of early Mormon cosmology. Take a listen, you may find some nuggets inspirational.
  5. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    I'm fine with different passages contradicting each other, I'm not rejecting those passages, I'm trying to understand context and meaning. I also don't read the scriptures as some kind of rule book for how we should live our lives. Fundamentalists and literalists don't even comprehend any other way of approaching scripture. I'm not sure where you fall along that spectrum, but it sounds like you want to put me into a binary position, and that is what I reject.
  6. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree that Jesus was critiquing them for hypocrisy, but I think it was more than that. The way you've contextualized a difference between the law and what was an appendage to that law, its a largely modern Christian reading of the history. What the sabbath was to be about according to Christians, and not according to Jewish tradition. I totally agree about the perfection checklist mentality, and that is way to common in our culture. I also agree that this is a concern as well. I'm glad to see you're thinking about these things. While I am critiquing the dominant culture in the church, I'm not condemning it as a whole. There are many good things that I'm proud to be a part with respect to my Mormon culture and heritage. I could never leave off one of the most egregious problems in the culture, this one is glaring and front and center in my view and its contributing to suicide and major suffering. That kind of evil I cannot ignore, although I understand you have a different opinion. I see the problem as way worse than just the perfection list syndrome. Its a developmental problem and its stunting the maturity and growth of an entire population of people. I listened to a great podcast episode with Richard Rohr yesterday (he's amazing) and he spoke about this from an adult development perspective within the context of the topic of consent. Really interesting in case you're open to listening to other Christians talk about contemporary issues out there. http://www.theliturgists.com/podcast/2018/10/18/christian-part-fohr
  7. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    I'm not under the illusion that every scripture by every author over the course of history somehow harmonizes.
  8. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    I'm pointing out that pride is found within the church as well, nobody is immune. Its not turning the scriptures on its head, I think its taking the scriptures more seriously and applying the lessons to ourselves.
  9. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Thanks, I'll consider that a compliment.
  10. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Jesus was the source of the law, the great high priest, and thus the ultimate authority on what was sin or wasn't. The point being that Jesus was pushing against the established church leadership, and critiquing it and sinning by the standards of the correlated church narrative of his day. The people of Isaiah's day didn't find his "blanket judgements" justified either. Thats the point, Isaiah was critiquing the members of his day and they weren't listening. This is one of the most frequently recurring themes throughout the scriptures, that the members of the church are falling short, are prideful, are under condemnation for the status quo thinking, for not living the gospel as it should be lived. Members today often seem more focused on pointing fingers at the world, than on pointing a finger at the current church culture. It sounds a lot like those in the great and spacious building to me. One more critique I have of our culture. Members look at this idea of revelation from the institutional hierarchy and worship it like an idol. They've mailed in their personal authority and they consider this a virtue to be admired and emulated. This is another huge problem in contemporary Mormonism.
  11. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Its just a promise between to parties and means absolutely nothing without actions to follow it up. As I mentioned earlier as well D&C 137 takes the emphasis away from Baptism, and puts the focus on intent and works. That is my point. We'll have to disagree on this one.
  12. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    According to the church hierarchy of his day, Jesus very much participated in sinful activity, and these church leaders were constantly calling him out for breaking the laws of the established religion, and he was redefining those laws. All is well in Zion, and much of the Isaiah scriptures in the BoM are a direct critique of Israel (in other words, the members of the church in that day.) Zion has fallen prey to prideful thinking, and this is emblematic in the church today, whether it is the prideful thinking that permeates an anti science ideology or the justification of bigotry towards the LGBT community, or the prideful thinking that has members constantly patting themselves on the back for being the one and only true religion, sounds a lot like the rameumptom every week to me. I'm not placing blame on individuals as much as I'm critiquing the culture and the lack of leadership to steer the ship in substantive ways. We can do so much better and its a true shame that we're doing so poorly.
  13. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    I think you make a good point. To build on your analogy, I would also say that each individual around the elephant has a unique perspective that is valid from their position. The rough skin of the Elephant's leg, the hairy strings of the tail, the moist end of the trunk. Each of these parts of the elephant require a different approach and have unique needs that are different than the other parts of the elephant. So they are relative in that sense. As for God's will, I envision God from a more pantheist perspective, so God's will includes aligning to the needs of all life within the universe. As for dismissing ordinances as requirements one person might feel very strongly about the importance of the ritual, others may not. What I do reject is the idea that another human can be the ultimate judge of some person's status with God. That core ethic that we can't be the ultimate judge of others, is an important principle for me. Otherwise this tendency that people have to judge others becomes too corrupting of an influence. The Church would not disagree with you about the bold part. Your perceptions of the Church feeding into Satan's plan is a misguided though. I don't see it that way at all. I don't see the all is well in Zion mentality either - I really don't know why you think the church is promoting that view. From my vantage point, I see the all is well in Zion thinking constantly pervasive in our culture. Whether its messages from conference or comments in my local ward, its everywhere. One example would be from my Sunday School class this last Sunday where we had a lengthy discussion about standing in holy places like the temple. The idea was expounded upon by multiple participants that we need to keep ourselves safe from the evils of this world in a literal sense by going to the temple as well as psychologically by not entertaining any conversations with worldly rational, including the infamous philosophies of men. From my perspective this is contrary to the gospel Jesus preached. He was the antithesis of this mentality, with his engagement with all those marginalized and evil secular and disease carrying people. He didn't hide from the world, he engaged with it, and he fought against the principles of power of his day, instead of hiding away in powerful structures to separate yourself from the secular, and refusing to engage with society when you find it challenges your ways of thinking. Again, D&C 137 was before the prophet encountered the tail of the elephant. It was not whole or complete. But it did not contradict any future revelation as baptism is absolutely a work - what else would it be? A belief? A thought? A word? We will be judged based upon our thoughts, words, and actions. Baptism absolutely falls under the actions (works) category.  Baptism is a covenant or promise between two parties about what our works will be. Baptism is a commitment to do good works, but it isn't a work in and of itself. It is meaningless if there are not works to back it up. In the legal world, it would be like signing a contract without consideration. The works are the consideration that make the contract enforceable, otherwise there is no point to the contract. As for the prophet feeling the tail of the elephant later when he revealed baptisms for the dead, the prophet may have only felt part of the tail and a future prophet could discover additional things that change our conception all together. That is the whole point of on-going revelation. These concepts have changed many times in the past and they will change many times in the future. Which prophetic declaration is the true one, if they are constantly changing? Its just like saying which part of the elephant is the true one. They all have elements of truth to them that are relevant to the context within which they were observed. But none of them are the full elephant. I would venture to say that we will never have the full elephant, because not only are our perceptions so limited, but the elephant is also changing at the same time.
  14. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    Of course for reasoned moral principles I completely agree that we should take them very seriously. And in this case, I think I'm actually more closely examining the history of our theology than is typically done, and I'm not just following the spoon fed assumptions of recent tradition. Of course a strong dose of humility ought to be used as well.
  15. hope_for_things

    Temple Recommend Questions

    I’m making a historical observation about what the thinking was at that point in time. Read my reply to Calm if you think I’m stuck in a linear view of things, precisely the opposite, hence my preference for relative thinking.
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