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clarkgoble last won the day on March 22

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About clarkgoble

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  1. What they say in public is a little less open than what they say in smaller groups. I think it's wise to worry about weirdness. But I think they also worry tremendously about people hinging on every word they say. I recall a fireside I was at where Elder Eyring was speaking and he mentioned that and in particular the problem of people repeating on Facebook what gets said in meetings (often incorrectly). Even Pres. Hinkley who really started that process of paying more attention to PR would speak pretty openly depending upon the audience. So the same guy who backed off somewhat to Time Magazine over deification spoke at a Saturday session of Stake Conference for an hour on making your calling and election sure as tied to deification. (Pre-internet) Talk of gifts, visions and so forth tend to get spoken of more when there's a certain trust in the audience and their ability to keep sacred things sacred. And of course even when they say something sometimes that is just speculation. So I don't know why, for instance, Elder Wirthlin thought John was involved. There's of course a tradition that John and the three Nephites walk the earth doing various things. It's a popular Mormon folklore. How you'd know who was John tends to be trickier. To the second coming, there's definitely been a backing off since 9/11 on last days talks. Especially compared to when I was a kind in the cold war. There really was a sense in the cold war that the end of the world could happen at any moment. But I think a bigger problem was that eschatological concerns were starting to get a tad out of hand in the aftermath of 9/11. While it's just a guess, I suspect Pres. Hinkley was impressed to back things off because many members were going astray. And when you go astray more than the days when Mad Max seemed like it could happen any day, that's saying a lot. But look at all the craziness going on the past decade. He probably was right.
  2. While some of McConkie's speculations on the last days are just that, speculation, the above seems pretty mainstream and largely is just paraphrasing scripture. What in that do you find so controversial? The gathering of the lost ten tribes? I've no idea where they are but it's probably a situation akin to how the typical native American is related to Lehi. We wouldn't recognize them as Israel if we saw them. So almost certainly they're some group out there right now that will fulfill some purpose in the future. It's not even clear that we'd recognize them as the ten tribes prior to the second coming. For all I know he's speaking of people from Afghanistan or Iran who in some decade or century in the future align with Israel in some way. That seems unthinkable now but anyone looking at the sweep of history the past century sees that things shift quickly.
  3. Class size does matter. To reduce class size you need more teachers. To hire more teachers you need more money. Likewise having teacher's aids helps tremendously especially when there are struggling students in the class. This lets the teacher focus more on the general student rather than having their time monopolized by the problem students. In turn that helps students with learning disabilities or behavioral issues to do better and interfere with the learning of other students less. I don't want to say poor teachers aren't a big issue. But then of course when teaching pays so little you're less apt to attract good teachers to your state. It has worked in Utah, I think, due to a certain sexism here regarding jobs. There's an expectation that one can pay women less. Since many if not most teachers are women, the job isn't accorded the same respect. Likewise the perception is that the job is an adjunct to the person with the real job: the husband. While I recognize not everyone adopts that sexist attitude I've heard enough people outright express it that I think it's a big problem in Utah. At least as big a problem as allocating enough resources to schools. Certainly money doesn't solve all problems. However it seems odd to think that you'd attract the same caliber of teacher when your salaries are among the lowest in the country. Now that said, people definitely expect too much from school and teachers. They simply can't make up for a chaotic home life - which is what many people expect them to do. That doesn't mean that school can't be improved over where it is. And those improvements cost money. An other way to look at the problem is that if Utah home life is so great, why don't Utah students score better in standardized tests? Why doesn't Utah with its great home life do at least as good as Massachusetts?
  4. Yes, and as I mentioned that's bunk as it confuses causation with correlation. i.e. the people who don't finish school likely have other characteristics beyond school that are what have the causal effect. Ditto with marriage. Simply taking your typical poor person getting them married, giving them a GED, and a job likely doesn't change the habits and other issues keeping them in poverty. Maybe they'll help a bit (especially the job part) but it may well be that the poor impulse control, social ties, and lack of conscientiousness will lead them to divorce & lose their job. There's a fair bit of work on this that goes against Sawhill and Haskin's quip.
  5. The wiki mentions the problems I mentioned. Particularly whether Ezekiel would have referred to a Canaanite Daniel. I hadn't heard that about the yod though. That's interesting. To my point though, more or less what I meant is that while the text of Daniel was late (there's abundant evidence for that) it might be based on earlier texts. Not having the full earlier traditions it's hard to say. For instance the Book of Daniel may have been an earlier story perhaps with a different king put in a Persian context. (Say Tyre?) Oh completely agree. But the problem is we don't have any evidence period. It could be completely fiction or based on real events but we have no way of telling. We just have the text. While we can make arguments to the text of Ezekiel and these earlier Canaanite texts, it's pure speculation at best with circumstantial evidence that the Canaanite Danel was Ezekiel's. Even if we think that more likely, thinking it more likely doesn't mean we have enough evidence to have much confidence.
  6. It's like that at my kids school in Provo too.
  7. Yes, my concern with schools is more with my children rather than economic mobility. I think the cause is a certain libertarian tendency in Utah that just hates government spending - particularly taxes - even when it's in an area that traditionally has been a government focus. I think though if we're looking at exporting solutions that there's a correlation not causation effect. That is the people who aren't married often don't have the skills to have good marriages. Plus there's a lot in their environment working against good marriages. So if people just got married more in say Mississippi that wouldn't necessarily have a causal consequence of better upward mobility. The reality is that the people in Utah are socially different and that matters. My own political view is that we should be trying to increase mobility in terms of getting the poor to move to where the jobs are and move to where there's better social environments. Dense neighborhoods of poverty are not good. There's a fair bit of economic literature on this. Likely what's happening in Utah is the peer effect where even people in bad family situations have more peers who are in good ones. That then helps them first off set expectations, see examples but also have more incentive to rise to those situations.
  8. Well to a degree. I think she exaggerated it somewhat when one sees the number of hispanics at 13% which is higher than many states. I bet the statistics in SLC are fairly different from the overall state statistics too.
  9. Just to be pedantic, I should note that the question isn't whether it was inspired or not. Just whether it was racist or not. Even if you believe it was of God that doesn't make it less racist under the definition. As for what the Church can do, I think some of the outreach to black churches has helped. We've not seen as much of that of late, but I know Pres. Hinkley did a lot of that. I'd like to see more of that. I'd like to see the Church do a bit more in predominately black areas to get more black members. I was on a mission in Lousiana in the late 80's and we had a few wards go from almost no blacks to at least half blacks. But we did a lot of things to help them feel comfortable. Some really great members who went out of their way helped a great deal too - especially with older southern members who often were pretty racist. (The members from Utah and the Mormon corridor who were there for jobs were much more helpful) That said from what I understand the church after that initial change hasn't grown as much in the black community. I'd love to know why. Having some more black GAs would help a great deal as well although that's clearly up to the Lord. But I do know there are some fantastic black leaders and hopefully we'll see more among the 70's and then hopefully one day in the 12.
  10. My understanding is that traditionally people were shipped from Utah County to SLC simply because that was where the state resources were for things like mental health and the like. There's some in Utah County but the focus here was getting people into apartments - but that's harder due to the rapid growth and the somewhat understandable unenthusiasm by most landlords. I don't have hard data although when I did a story on this earlier this morning at T&S I linked to the January city council notes. The problem on the mountainside has been a huge topic of concern among Provost residents on Facebook the past few weeks as the camp has gotten bigger. The police apparently went to remove them but was rebuffed by the property owner (they aren't on public property) who is using it to leverage the city into rezoning his property as I understand. He and the city have butted heads many times. He is building the big condo development on the hillside which was originally zones for single family dwellings. For more info I'd probably do a search for provost and homeless camp on Facebook. (I'm not a FB person so I can't give links)
  11. Joseph believed that the sons of Levi would be sanctified and again offer offerings. It's not clear if that's a one time thing or a restoration of older sacrifices. (Again remembering that Israelite religion likely shifted a fair bit first with Josiah's reforms and then again during the exile, much as it did yet again with the destruction of the second temple and the diaspora) Authority to practice baptism for the dead requires the Melchezedek Priesthood and keys of those designated at the temple. No reason why Jews couldn't do it, but they'd still be operating under the sealing power which isn't in the lineage based priesthood of Aaron.
  12. Remember vowels weren't in the Hebrew. I've not heard the different spelling take, but I'm not sure that's that significant. The usual concern is both an older Canaanite story that Daniel has some parallels to. While the Ezekiel account likely isn't referring to that Canaanite story most assume it's an older story. But that doesn't mean that the fairly late text of Daniel isn't itself inspired by that earlier account as well. While there's no obvious older strata to Daniel the way there is to say Job, that doesn't mean it's not a reworking of older narratives.
  13. I tend to agree. I used to volunteer feeding the homeless in Provo. There were some people clearly down on their luck. I remember a family with three kids living out of their car due to umemployment. But then I also saw people walk in offering jobs that paid better than I was making at the time and being turned down. It was hard to volunteer after that.
  14. Note her point wasn't about racism today. Indeed she emphasizes how amazed there was that race didn't matter to people. Rather her point was that past racism (which is just a fact of history) led to a fairly homogenous society. That's important since many economists and sociologists argue that things work as well as they do in nordic countries because of that homogeneity.
  15. Depends upon the context. The key text for Mormons tends to be Jacob 5. The idea is that gentiles are grafted onto Israel by adoption.