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alter idem

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About alter idem

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    Senior Member: Divides Heaven & Earth

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  1. alter idem

    And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

    You know, I think most of us would be happy to leave Gina 'alone in her journey', but she made this journey public and difficult to ignore, so if anyone is guilty of 'hurting' her, it's Gina. Many many people make these kinds of journeys out of the church without having to have an audience, but apparently she felt she needed one. This goes back to my frustrations with these latest church critics who are perceived as 'victims' of a tyrannical church. You are perpetuating that by now suggesting that discussing her is 'hurting' her. Why are we discussing her? Because she's made this all public and therefore wants it discussed. Sam Young, Bill Reel, Gina Colvin--they are responsible for the publicity and desire the attention, the spotlight on their lives. We're just giving them what they want.
  2. alter idem

    And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

    It's a premise that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe and pattern their lives after. When we take on the Name of Christ through baptism in his church, we are publicly displaying to the world that we believe his teachings which are found in his church and if followed; this is the path to everlasting joy. Some come to decide that they no longer believe this and they are free to disagree and choose their own paths, as Gina Colvin did. What others believe of us doesn't really matter. If they think we lying to ourselves or we're foolish or deluded, it doesn't change our commitment and faith in what we know spiritually in our hearts and minds. This is the blessing of having a testimony. IMO, given the seriousness of the Covenants she made and the symbol of what baptism meant, Gina should have resigned her membership, it should not have had to come to a disciplinary counsel. This is a common problem in our day, creating 'victims'. Gina Colvin is not a victim, but some want to paint her as one and the church as the perpetrator of her victimhood.
  3. alter idem

    And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

    And since she got baptized into the Anglican church, I guess she's decided that church will make her happy--I wish her the best as she's free to make this decision. However, doing so means she's rejected her CofJCofLDS baptism, which would not automatically trigger a disciplinary counsel. What brought the disciplinary counsel was her public criticisms and joining another church--which IS grounds for excommunication. One of the charges given to church leaders is to protect and defend the faith and excommunication is one of the options used for this purpose. What is hard to comprehend is why anyone would argue against the church's right to uphold/carry out it's own policies and practices.
  4. alter idem

    Lucy Mack Smith's account of the First Vision

    I'm not ignorant of this. However, I still feel there were differences that aren't being taken into consideration. In her day, there were none of the medications that many 72 year olds take today to remove symptoms and improve life which may have affected their health--emotional and physical, while not shortening their lives. And I believe that her age ought to be taken into consideration when looking at the Book she wrote with the help of her friends as well as any other recollections she left. Brigham Young's criticisms of her book were that there were many mistakes in her recollections and personally I'm certain that was due to her memory. I believe that it's not unreasonable to consider Lucy Smith's age at the time. Not that it matters, it is not necessary that we agree on this.
  5. alter idem

    Lucy Mack Smith's account of the First Vision

    I guess that's a matter of opinion, but I was under the impression that 69 was considered quite old in the 1840's, especially during a time period where they did not have modern medicine to counteract all the problems of aging, but to each his own.
  6. alter idem

    Sam Young is Excommunicated

    I read this. Sam Young just needs to start his own church as he is not happy how this one is run. I personally don't want him or anyone else trying to run the church. I want our leaders who are called through inspiration from the Holy Ghost to be making inspired decisions, not being held hostage to the demands of one individual (now former) member. And from what I've read of his comments, I'd say he's not just concerned about obviously inappropriate interviewing, but he also doesn't want the church teaching chastity at all because he seems to think any time morals and standards are discussed, it makes some uncomfortable and this 'harms' them. There are some who believe that causing people to feel guilt is harmful and the way to remove guilt is to make all behavior accepted. IMO, Sam Young is one of those. Also, I thought it interesting that he kept going on about not being allowed to record the hearing, yet no one told him he couldn't record this latest interaction and yet, he didn't take advantage of the opportunity. I'd rather have heard the interaction between him, his StakeP and his Bishop, rather than trust his version of what was said.
  7. alter idem

    Lucy Mack Smith's account of the First Vision

    Here's more information from Fair mormon on the letter to her brother here;https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith's_mother_say_that_the_First_Vision_was_of_an_"angel"%3F Also, when she dictated her history she was 69 years old and I'm certain her memory would have not been the best and likely jumbled some things in her recollections.
  8. The Gospel Principles manual states this regarding the spirit world; "All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children.' The reference given is Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith (1998) pg 131-32. Seems odd that if they are adults as spirits, though they died as children, they would be resurrected as children and never ever grow up. Also, all those babies that have died--who'd want to stay a baby for eternity?? How can they become like God, if they are stuck in an infant's body?? I have to think that someone misunderstood what Joseph Smith jr. was saying....
  9. alter idem

    Sam Young is Excommunicated

    I'm not sure how Sam Young can be given credit for having influenced the church when these actions by the church took place before he held his starvation stand and was exed. I remember thinking at the time if possibly he was unaware of the changes which had already been announced.
  10. When you are rested, here is some information on the Satanic panic. It was more than just a 'scare' in the 80's, it's what drove these cases--including the one against the Miles family. Personally, I'd rather not see these poor people dragged into this hell again. I think that time, more knowledge and hindsight should help us see this clearly for what it is. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanic_Panic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse https://www.vox.com/2016/10/30/13413864/satanic-panic-ritual-abuse-history-explained https://www.people.vcu.edu/~dbromley/undergraduate/spiritualCommunity/SatanicCults.html This former case which is being dredged up and resurrected is one of these cases from the 1980's 'Satanic panic' scare. Barbara Snow, the therapist, was a driving force in many of the unsubstantiated allegations here in the LDS community--some forty individuals were accused through her efforts giving 'therapy' to children. As was mentioned, the grandmother was involved with Snow's clinic, so I don't see how we can consider her as objective. The children from the second marriage have no knowledge of the Miles's guilt, yet they are suing them? Why? Negligence for what? There's no evidence the accusations had any credibility back in 1985, let alone now.
  11. So, you said this; "As to the Miles being implicated, that would come only from the children of the 1st wife who actually have the memories of what allegedly happened to them". So I'm confused. If the Miles' could only be implicated by the children of the first wife, why are they being implicated in this present case by children from the second wife who really have no knowledge to accuse them? Seems to me that they and their attorney are simply trying to tie this unfairly to the church and trying to get publicity out of it because the Miles' are related to Pres. Nelson.
  12. That may be true in general, but unfortunately not true for the time period in the US called 'The Satanic Panic' of the 80's and 90's. Lots of children were prompted, coerced and manipulated into making false accusations through the influence of unscrupulous therapists. Barbara Snow, who was involved in the case being discussed in this thread, and was one of those therapists and the Miles's and others being accused, along with dozens of other innocent people in the Bountiful area are some of the victims of this modern day witchhunt. Are you familiar with the McMartin preschool case? That's one of the most famous from that time period.
  13. So, are we to assume that the plaintiffs are all children from the first wife and none from the second?
  14. But who made the assessment that the Bountiful police 'weren't interested' or 'showed no interest' in pursuing allegations? Who wrote that? Someone who believes the therapist--that the Miles's are guilty? Someone who refuses to recognize that the police have to actually have evidence of a crime before they can consider criminal charges? More likely from what I've read, the Bountiful police could find no credible evidence to pursue the case. This therapist's efforts brought about outlandish, unsubstantiated accusations against a lot of likely innocent people, yet the one person who may have been guilty went free. How does someone mess things up to that degree?
  15. 'Why on earth would children lie?" We already know the answer. They lie because a harmful, terrible therapist influenced and coerced them through leading and manipulative questions to come up with all kinds of false and fanciful stories. This happened back in the 80's and 90's, it's well known and documented and the Miles' are one of the families who this happened to. It isn't hard to do this either, you can make people believe all kinds of false things, by implanting memories and using certain techniques. The question you should be asking is why this therapist would want to fan the flames that destroyed so many lives? What was wrong with her that she used her influence in such a way?