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Gray

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  1. Gray

    Oaks on Religious Freedom

    Edit: Already addressed
  2. Priesthood in the Bible, as practiced by the communities that wrote the Bible (an important distinction to make), is for the most part the Levitical priesthood. Most prophets didn't have it and neither did the 12 apostles. Mormons tend to think of prophets as having had the Melchizedek priesthood, but that's not supported either. In fact even in Christianity there isn't any kind of formal church leadership until after the time of the original apostles and after the time of Paul. And equating ecclesiastical leaders (bishops, for instance) with priesthood took time. The early churches had no central leadership, and were operated in a charismatic way with lay members each demonstrating the various "spiritual gifts" mentioned by Paul. Late in the first century you start to get elders running the churches, and then eventually Bishops start to take a strong leadership role in congregations in the second century. In Mormonism we equate leadership with priesthood, but that's not generally congruent with the Biblical record. Priesthood was for the most part about ordinances, not leadership.
  3. Adieu is no more anachronistic than "goodbye" in English. This is the world's dumbest criticism.
  4. Why would a court of law be concerned with whether or not a religious text was historical and had historicity? Most religious texts lack the latter to varying degrees. The former is something any of them can acquire with enough time.
  5. I'm not sure what this would have to do with what I said? How does this make prophet some kind of office within the priesthood? That's the LDS view, which can't be supported with the Bible. References to legendary priests from outside of Judaism proper doesn't seem relevant. Pharaoh has priests as well. Certainly there may have been other forms of priesthood in the distant past. Judaism after all evolved from the polytheistic traditions of the region. That still doesn't connect priesthood to prophets. Regarding apostles, even from the received tradition none of them are identified as priests. They are in fact described as illiterate peasants in Acts. When we're talking about the 12 apostles, especially during the life of Jesus, we're still discussing Judaism, not Christianity. I'm actually distinguishing the priesthood from prophets/apostles.
  6. The link in question lays out the characteristics of priesthood, and it's exactly as I described. Not connected whatsoever with the prophets. If you doubt me, try to find the Biblical passage that says prophets must hold some kind of priesthood. I'll wait.
  7. Turns out it's the script to The Road to El Dorado
  8. Gray

    David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

    Perhaps they're issuing "carefully worded" denials and affirmations. Is that a problem?
  9. Gray

    David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

    I was listening to part 2 today. Bokovoy's views on a historical /ancient BOM being totally incompatible with the conclusions of historical criticism (an issue you and I have discussed several times) are very much in line with what I've concluded as well.
  10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_(Ancient_Israel) Perhaps you didn't read the link the first time. It's not odd. Remember what sparked this line of discussion: "or going with the more Biblical path of separating priesthood from leadership." The issue is precisely what does priesthood mean in the Bible.
  11. Already asked and answered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_(Ancient_Israel)
  12. It's not question begging at all. What I said was no more controversial than saying water is wet. Appealing to non-existent, hypothetical redacted documents doesn't help either. The idea of priesthood as some kind of prerequisite for prophethood or apostleship simply isn't supported. Of course any prophet who was also a Levite would be an exception. Melchizedek was supposed to be some kind of mysterious primitive priest/king, but that doesn't advance the argument.
  13. Asked and answered. Did you read the wiki summary of Hebrew priesthood? You'll see nothing there about priesthood being required for someone to be a prophet or a judge in Israel. I already responded to that. Of course the D&C is not part of the Bible, and articulates a different view of priesthood.
  14. Gray

    Nature of Joseph Smith's First Vision

    There comes a point where the translation is so loose that you cease to be able to say anything about the contents of the ur text (if it existed) at all. If you can get post-Biblical atonement theology and late Christian messiah theology out of an ancient Jewish text, you might as well loose translate Buddhism or dianetics out of it too.
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