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About Calm

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    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.
  • Birthday October 28

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    Here be dragons

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  1. Calm

    What advice would you give, to your children?

    I have a bit of a problem with number three. If the intent is to save lives, why not tell them to be on the look out for reckless cyclists, drunk drivers, or muggers (or even parachutists as you are more likely to be killed by one of those than a terrorist)? And teach them how to avoid being outside in lightning storms or even inside taking a shower or doing dishes, teach them current CPR skills and the Heimlich manuvuer and how to spot signs of kids being abducted, skills that would be more useful. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/you-re-more-likely-die-choking-be-killed-foreign-terrorists-n715141 https://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/storms/dangerous-to-bathe-during-thunderstorm.htm
  2. There are other posters claiming the same level of knowledge or more elsewhere who are saying he was just a typical sleazebag, so I wouldn't assume he actually used plural marriage as part of his pressure tactics. Saw several being disgusted that critics would use the hardship of a sick woman and a devoted husband caring for her to create a disgusting rumor, it must be very hard on those who understood it that way and explained the departure for those reasons to others to find out the truth. I so get why it wasn't announced if the reason was to avoid placing abused sisters in difficult positions, it would be so hard to bond with members, investigators, and other missionaries if one was always wondering if the other person was speculating if she was one of the abused and honestly given how gossip and self doubt works, if they had made any announcementof his release for unworthiness, I bet that is where speculation would go, so I agree with the article the Church leadership was between a rock and a hard place on this one.
  3. Reddit (and therefore take it as unconfirmed) has one person claiming to know that the MP was engaging in polygamy with the sister missionaries. Since none of the sister missionaries were sent home, it sounds like it wasn't sexual at the point it was stopped. They were probably mostly clueless about what he was intending until they found out what he had been intending when he got investigated, which would be a huge shock and sense of violation, imo.
  4. The daughter in the quote I provided did not say she had to deal with a bunch of bureaucrats to finout who her mother was, but that she had to do incredible sleuthing to find her. What do you think that sleuthing entailed? ------ Have you listened to or read the entire transcript?
  5. If Jordan was told by a family member/friend and did not have adoption agency records, do you see his own possession of the info as problematic? If it is, shouldn't the family member/friend be held responsible rather than the Church? While it is certainly possible that the info was from the FS files, after what toot stated about Utah's rules (and I find it likely most states have similar restrictions) it seems highly unlikely that Jordan would be sharing information from illegally obtained files. We know her ex husband was contacted at least by the media, makes sense Jordan would also do so given the major accusation Denson made in regard to him in the recording. He may have had contact with Denson through a daughter (don't know if he is the father or not) and thus known the history. Or perhaps Jordan talked to her mother or stepfather or siblings if she has any. "Failed relationships" are listed, this info is unlikely to have come from old FS records or police records, the most likely source for such info would be family. "She said it took intense sleuthing on her part to find her birth mom." That sounds like she went looking for family or old neighbours to find where Denson was currently. Therefore it is likely some in the family, the same people Jordan would likely contact for info about Denson, would be aware of her name. ------- But what does his second wife's (ex wife actually) first marriage have to do with Bishop's history of problems? It could have easily been redacted without any impact on Denson's position. Respecting Bishop's second wife (ex wife) privacy where her life experiences are irrelevant to Bishop's behaviour.
  6. Hopefully a good part of that was a hefty divorce settlement if he is dating now.
  7. I think if it had been made public knowledge, it would have severely hampered many of the sister missionaries in the mission, especially the victims. I can imagine the level of gossip and questioning would have been dramatic. Frequent expressions of support still may end up rehearsing once again what they went through, forcing them to relive over and over. Given it apparently involved a number of women and any information shared publicly would have put even those who chose not to go public in difficult positions (if asked if they were a victim, they would likely be required to lie to avoid the conversation if it became public knowledge), it sounds like the best of a bad situation. None of the sisters involved needed to return home early. Hopefully this means the counseling received was sufficient, though that would likely be the first steps towards healing and more might be needed over time. Not being in their usual support system probably made it much harder to want to come forward (make it public). The apparently crap police handling of such things might have sealed the deal. While I hope that more victims come forward as police learn more effective investigation procedures, those closest appear to believe in this case it was the right decision for them and I think they should be given the respect of accepting their choices even if it is frustrating to know legal action wasn't taken.
  8. For larceny and burglary...given he was then a wealthy man, with his own private plane, could this be a 'white collar' type of crime, some sort of fraud?
  9. Puerto Rico doesn't seem to have a good record for investigating and prosecuting more violent crimes so likely not great as well for the less violent forms of sexual assault: https://www.aclu.org/other/failure-police-crimes-domestic-violence-and-sexual-assault-puerto-rico
  10. You shouldn't force victims to testify. We have no clue of the quality of the law enforcement there, how quickly it would have proceeded, if victims would have had to returned to testify, perhaps multiple times. I can't think it would have been wise to have allowed a very wealthy man continued potential access to the victims by having him stay in Puerto Rico while they waited to see if any victims changed their minds about coming forward. If the Church had excommunicated him immediately (as they should have done), why would the man have chosen to stay around waiting for an investigation to be started rather than returning g to safer shores where he couldn't be prosecuted?
  11. The story reporting I get...it is the mole leaking the info I am criticizing. The only thing I am attacking consig for is his letting everyone know he knew the second victim's name who had not gone public at all in the middle of this very public discussion so the default position should be she wants her privacy and while he wasn't sharing the name, he was alerting people that it was possible to get it and thus is threatening her privacy. I don't see how knowing he knows it advances the information at all so it appears to me he is attempting to boost his own credibility as someone with inside information in a potentially harmful way. Who here has been dismissive of the sharing of the adopted daughter's name? The only dispute I can recall is over who leaked it since the media reported Greg Bishop didn't leak it. When I misremembered Greg Bishop as the leaker of her name, I was hoping for his being kicked off the Bar. Once I was corrected, since no one stated how the letter leaked out, I don't know where to focus my criticism. "Jordan, who did not return a request for comment made to his office, launched an inquiry. In a nine-page letter to the woman’s attorney, he notes “inconsistencies” in her story and details a string of episodes in the accuser’s life, ranging from the church discipline she had previously faced to her criminal record, and from failed relationships to lawsuits, even job firings. A bulleted timeline begins with the woman’s teenage pregnancy and includes the name of the daughter she gave up for adoption. Seeing her name in the file on her birth mother was troubling on several levels, the adoptee told The Salt Lake Tribune this week. “It has given me a lot of anxiety.”... Jordan shared his letter with Bishop’s son, Greg Bishop, who is acting as his father’s attorney, to use in any settlement efforts. Jordan did not share his letter with reporters, but Greg Bishop, who declined to comment for this story, copied some of the information about the victim — omitting mention of the adopted daughter’s name — and sent it to various news outlets as a way to defend his dad. The full letter has since leaked out." https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/04/04/a-woman-was-shocked-to-see-her-name-in-a-mormon-church-compiled-dossier-which-she-says-was-designed-to-discredit-her-birth-mother/ I can't think of any reason why the daughter's name needed to be included unless she was being called as a witness by someone and that seems highly unlikely. Jordan was not the one to share it with the media; his communication would have been, I assumed, intended to remain confidential among the lawyers. It does not say where the information was received from, given the inclusion of failed relationships, toon's suggestion it might be from family or friends and the restrictions Utah places on adoption records seems quite possible. It is still in my opinion totally inappropriate for her name to be made a part of the case even if this was information shared by a family member, but since it was in confidential communication it does not appear to violate any legal standard, so while I think there should be something significant required for restitution by Jordan if there is no legal requirement to include it, getting disbarred for including private irrelevant information in a confidential communication unintended for publication seems too far. I assume there are comparable cases that the Utah Bar Association can find precedent for if a complaint is made (and if the daughter wants to, I hope she does). Does anyone know who leaked the full letter to the press? Whoever did that, if the daughter sued, I would be finding for her on that jury most likely. Smac was the other discussing this and he as well doesn't know who leaked the letter. I did not see him dismissive about it, CFR that he was letting off anyone for leaking full letter that included the daughter's name to the media. ----- As far as the dossier compiling about Denson, I find that comparable to the recording not reacting, but including Bishop's negative commentary about his wives (names are redacted, but that is a joke since he identifies who they are and Denson makes sure you know by color coding the names), his sexless marriage, some stuff going on with one of his sons, including personal information about the background of the other victim...all things to boost her own credibility while challenging the credibility of Bishop's when he denied any abuse. Instead of a point by point dossier, it was a lengthy transcript of the things she knew about him doing wrong in his life and pushing him to expose himself more...and Denson ensured it was made public while Jordan showed no intention that I know of for it not to remain in the circle of only those directly involved in the settlement negotiations. Vernon's filing added more details, such as the Weber controversy. If it is okay for Denson and Vernon to collect material to challenge the credibility of Bishop and church leaders, why is Jordan being a bully for doing the same thing essentially, just in a different format? There was no need to include the details of Bishop's second wife's first marriage, whose name can be found in five seconds so any claim of respecting her privacy is full of it, imo. It likely caused her a great deal of pain while it advanced Denson's claims zero. Why has there been no criticism of Denson needlessly involving irrelevant innocent bystanders?
  12. But isn't toon saying in the cases where there is no JDA, such sharing would be inappropriate?
  13. Calm


    So Nipper, if we found some equidistant letter sequencing codes in the Book of Mormon, would it prove to you it was God's word? Amulek, same idea, you got in a second earlier...no fair.
  14. Calm


    An Amazon review that seems pretty fair given the others, definitely more detailed:
  15. Calm


    "Now, it’s always fascinated me that both my father and myself had seven children, six sons and a daughter, so it should be no surprise that when I studied the Bible, this verse would make me pause, because Leah also had six sons and a daughter. As I examined the original Hebrew text in the Leningrad Codex, I went straight for Genesis chapter 30, 20 through 25, to see if I might find anything hidden there. I found it immediately. There in Genesis chapter 30, 20 through 25, I found the Hebrew letters of my own name encrypted in the text at a perfect equidistant skip of 16. The odds of it being there by chance are astronomical, many billions to one. This was absolutely unbelievable." http://godcodebook.com/what-is-the-chamberlain-key/