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About readstoomuch

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  1. This is about the 4th topic posted on this message board lately that seems chronologically to follow the very topic being posted on the MormonDiscussionPodcast Facebook page. Lately there seems to be an increasing vitriol to that Facebook page. Sort of a cross between the Tanners, MormonStories, MormonThink and Richard Abanes. Bits and pieces of rhetoric and innuendo from the past with an occasional real fact. The research to get some kind of understanding of the subtleties involved is intense. It is sad how many are deceived by this anti-Mormon rehash. The people who seem to follow this blindly is amazing
  2. LDS Chapel to Become Jewish Synagogue *

    Seventh Day Adventists and Lds share churches fairly frequently in the south. Just before Katrina I went to a professional conference in New Orleans.Church was held at a beautiful synagogue. Wondered if it survived.
  3. Evolution presupposes that a genetic mutation or trait brings a competitive advantage for survival. If a trait is not passed on then it dies out. That is one of the backbones of evolution. Sometimes it can take awhile to figure that out. Could being gay also coselect for speed as an example? In that case the gay guy can outrun the saber tooth tiger. The trait would still have to be passed on, but someone could make a theory and see if it ever is proven.
  4. Mormon 9:22–24 vs Mark 16: 15-18

    I asked a question also. What seems weird to me is that the post that started this thread and the dozens of other threads on your Facebook do not seem to be “leading with faith.” Your motto
  5. Mormon 9:22–24 vs Mark 16: 15-18

    Is it fair to say that Bill Reel brought up the argument without tools to reconcile it within a faithful context?
  6. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    I think your post and a link as an advertising gimmick is against board rules. This is a CES Letter knockoff. You are accomplished at gathering the biggest hits of anti-Mormonism. You are not balanced in giving the best LDS arguments or being balanced. You have good hair, though. It spikes quite nicely. After looking at this I have to say MDP is so much more balanced than you my friend. I know I started this thread about the negativity, but he puts far more effort in that you do in that direction. His sources are generally so much better and reliable, even if I disagree with him sometimes. So, I think Bill could do more good without the negativity, but I think maybe it is time to stop the vinegar myself about MPD. Introspection is good for the soul and we all need it.
  7. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    This thread has been critical or at least had a number of different opinions about MDP. I`m sure that is irritating, but that`s what happens through most of MDP podcasts. The Church and its leaders are subject to criticism and opinions about its supposed wrongdoings continuously. One of the latest podcasts/posts is directed at Elder Oaks recent conference talk. There is extensive presentism concerning what happened in the past. Because something happened in the past, how do we defend the Church`s present position. In particular Elder Oaks must become a historian and answer the questions. If not to MDP directly, then down the chain of command. I have no idea if Elder Oaks reads the website. Do you have to have a Phd in Church history to be an apostle. At least some history is reasonable, but to what level of knowledge? Many of these historical issues have no black and white answers, often just opinions. Isn`t the Spirit the most important thing the Apostle should have. I was a fan of MDP and have trouble being one now. It seems like it is spinning out of control and I just hope it doesn`t drag too many people with it. People will say ignore the podcast. Fine. MDP sees its mission to keep the issues in the Church`s face. Who is supposed to keep MDP honest in what it does?
  8. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    In the podcasts I heard messy quite a bit and variations on that theme. Then unhealthiness, then the abusive parent. That may have been when I finally went to that place in my head where this isn`t a "middle ground" podcast any more. It can be a broken record also about all that the brethren do wrong. Are there refreshing and uplifting moments-yes, I can`t deny that. It`s just harder to find and if it gets hard enough it gets tiresome trying.
  9. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    The thread has morphed a bit, but probably got into the meat of the matter. MDP seems to be trying to make sure that members know that realistic history has not always been taught correctly by the institutional Church. I think that well into the 50s people were more familiar with polygamy, one of the big sticking points. Fawn Brodie published No Man Knows My History in 1945. John Widstoe and BH Roberts published some books in the 1st half of the century that also discussed polygamy. BH Roberts was criticized for how blunt he was in the 6 volume Documentary History of the Church (not to be confused with the 7 volume History of the Church). In the late 70s and early 80s The Story of The Latter day Saints and The Mormon Experience were available. I remember from Quaker to Latter day Saint that was quite candid about Edwin Wooley Kimball, his plural wives and his somewhat stubborn nature. This was another book by Leonard Arrington. I remember saying to myself that we needed to teach more of this in Church. Something that about 20-30 year really started to happen. It was in fits and spurts before then. In 1983 I went to hear Leonard Arrington talk. I asked if I could spend some time talking to him and he asked me to have lunch with him. I kind of in a round about way said that I had been disappointed and confused to learn so much after my mission about Lds history . It was quite a positive experience to talk to him, much like talking to Richard Bushman. He said they were just barely getting the papers catalogued and professionalized to a point that serious research could go on. Restrictions on the archives were unfortunate and not unusual for institutions such as Churches and Universities. He also felt that there was a new openness and that we don`t have any thing to be ashamed of and there "was no document that he came across that had caused him to lose his faith in the Church." I know he had run ins with the general authorities. You might even say that I had more sympathy for the Arrington side than what I saw the institution do. I have read Prince`s book and others about Leonard. That day talking to him gave me a lasting impression that a person who had dug through all of the muck and details I think Bill is trying to make sure we know was a true believer. I have had some similar conversations with Larry Porter who I know the best. Larry was out there digging in the trenches in documents all throughout New York and Pennsylvania. One of the things that gets lost in talking about the foibles is how much positive the Church has to tell. Leonard brought that up. The richness of the material that is positive is so vast that it takes forever to go through. The every day saints who weren't general authorities have left numerous diaries and sources. The Restoration is an interesting and profound group of people. There is negative side or more blunly , we are human. The human side of the story needs to come out more often. Our manuals need updating in a serious kind of way. I would love the Milk Strippings story to be told differently. I think it will happen. More has happened in the last 10 years than I even expected. In the end the real job of our Church is to prepare the earth for the return. I pray that we can tell the amazing story of the Mormons. I fear that we spend too much time in the nineteenth century, when the twentieth has brought about so much. The foundational stories are important, but as new lands open up there are many new pioneers this very day whose voice also needs to be heard.
  10. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    Thank you very much for this Scott. I thought there was another side to this story and almost commented myself. Since I wasn't sure of or have proof of the alternative narrative, I hadn`t. There is also that thing called work. That brings up some more thoughts. I sat by Richard Bushman at a FAIR conference years ago. This was just after Rough Stone Rolling came out. He is a very kind, honest, and substantial man. We had a conversation and listened to a talk about plural marriage. He and I were discussing Joseph`s younger wives. Wives might be a misnomer since for a number of them it seems to have been a sealing that wasn`t consummated. There is a constant and unending conversation on this on many destinations. Between Joseph`s young "wives" and LGBT issues, almost every thread eventually seems to end up there (a little hyperbole). Just taking the youngest one, Helen Mar Kimball is a very complicated conversation. For example it starts with Heber C Kimball asking Joseph Smith to be sealed to her. Most if not all are willing to admit that consummation did not seem to happen. Of course no one knows for sure. She stayed faithful. She gave birth to future apostle Orson Whitney. Reading what personal writings she left is quite faith promoting. My perception is that she remained a true believer all of her days. In fact a faith-promoting believer to me. So, this conversation can easily go sideways and is complicated. This great man was able to have this discussion and still make me feel positively about our shared faith. Now let`s take a recent illustration of Joseph Smith`s wives on MormonDIscussionPodcasts Facebook group. It reminds me of the shop in Nauvoo that has 48 dolls next to Joseph Smith. The 48 number coming from Fawn Brodie`s inaccurate, scurrilous and hyper sexualized writings. I don`t think the illustration on MDP Facebook group is meant to do anything but shock. Just like the shop in Nauvoo. Sure for many the mere fact of Joseph Smith and polygamy is new and shocking. The explanation and discussion about it is problematic and complicated. Early polygamy was secretive, controversial, poorly documented and in the end hard to prove whatever conclusion you want to come to (good or bad). The comments about the illustration are typically all negative and all but throw Joseph Smith under the bus. I have spent months (spread out over 35 years) studying polygamy. I`m no Brian Hales, but I did spend a summer reviewing and looking for Fawn Brodie`s footnotes for example. It is hard work and for a number of years I just assumed there was wrongdoing, especially on Joseph Smiths part. Then while studying the Quorum of the Anointed I started following the number of meetings with the group. There was a large amount of energy and time involved in implementing the temple endowment. That and other items convinced me that early polygamy was about the rituals and sealings. I know sex was involved, but certainly less than is implied by a graphic of Joseph Smith`s wives. Very complicated discussion, but imo, for Joseph Smith the sealing ordinance was the reason it was implemented and not for pure lust. I want more truthful history. There is a bunch of effort in that direction. I am impressed and that is hard to do. That has been a real saddle sore for me with the Church, but I have tried to build faith. All I am feeling right now is anger and negativity from MDP. That is why I felt like I had to post. Bill feels like he must do what he has and I had to comment. Yes, I try to ignore MDP information. It still seems to come though, even when blocked.
  11. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    I thought we had to be the ones to lock a thread. I really don`t post that much. Also, I didn`t know how to talk about it without starting a thread. I guess either don`t talk about it or resurrect an old thread. It is interesting to see on Facebook what he has posted about General Authorities and then for me to be scolded about my behavior on the board.
  12. Mormon Discussion podcast and negativity

    I can see the need to not attack him personally. I do have a problem with his podcast. As far as ignoring him. I really do, but he comes up fairly often. My experience with someone who was having doubts and had listened was not helped at all by the podcast, it was a hindrance. I took a quite awhile trying to write and almost didn`t. I certainly don`t want to be in trouble. I don't even post all that much. The discussion has been useful, even the parts where I was brought to task about it. I will lock the thread if it becomes mean or the moderators want me to. It is a little hard to watch people struggle and then find a podcast that talks about "Leading by Faith" be part of the problem.
  13. I used to listen to Bill and even defended him here a few times. I look at his podcasts once in awhile and his posts show up on my Facebook feed occasionally. I really enjoyed some of his podcasts early on. Then about two years ago, they became more negative. That seems to have continued. Then he shows up on my Facebook feed and there isn`t any thing except nitpicking the General Authorities, the Church didn`t do enough of this or that, and a number of other foibles. Who is posting on his Facebook comments? Well, I recognized Michael Tweedy from his days at MormonThink. Then there is John Dehlin. 95% of it is negative, IMO. I`m having a hard time finding any thing positive or uplifting about his work. Ldsperspectives manages to talk frankly and still find ways to make me think and enjoy being Lds. Bill has read plenty, I can see that. He can come across as an expert, but his mind seems made up about his opinions. I also understand that there are people who are troubled and looking for help. I just don`t think I could find myself sending people to his site or podcasts. My reading of Facebook comments to his posts puts the toxicity a step below MormonStories. Most of the comments seem like they could come from people who left any religion or organization. I thought he was getting on track with a message I could support, but not now. I know the history, I read myself. I was just called as a member of the bishopric. For three weeks, I have been ministering to those in my ward. When I teach I am frank. I have had no pressure about teaching real history. My real goal is to bring others to Christ or to bring a small amount of Christ to people. That is what I really feel like being Lds is about, not minutiae about church history. I even find real history more faith promoting when I do bring it up. Mostly we are a ward family and are trying to lift one another burdens. Sorry Bill. This is all my opinion, so take it for what its worth. Could`t hold it in any more. Discuss the podcast not the person. Title has been modified.
  14. Regional Priesthood Leadership Conference

    If I remember Elder Oaks talk about the priesthood in Priesthood session a few years ago, I thought he said women receive priesthood authority. It is a very good talk. It sure made it sound to me like women operate in their callings, especially auxiliary leaders with priesthood authority.
  15. No position on God? How Evolution works according to Science

    Evolution is the underlying principle of biological sciences, including medicine. It is not a perfect theory, nor is every step along the way in man`s "creation" all known. Duane Jeffrey write as much or more about this as anyone in the Church. I know you can google his articles. Steven Peck writes some interesting things also. If evolution is the tool that was needed to create man, given whatever course he took in touching, shaping or bringing it about-good by me. There are some problems with how much evolutionary forces can act and be shaped by a creator. Intelligent Design isn`t the automatic answer. There does seem to be something different about resurrection than the original process of creation. Particularly after Jesus experienced death and resurrection. I always found the general authorities as forward thinking as almost any religion about evolution. No one is going to prove it to you or have the magic answer about how it all interacts. You have to read, pray and work it out for yourself. God exists and we exist. We are a mystery as is the universe. So ponder and enjoy the ride. You don`t have to give up believing the gospel because this isn`t worked out in your mind yet.