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About Abulafia

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  1. Calm said, on McKenna's accusations against Bishop's son's.. "Her claim is Bishop admitted it to her in the transcript" CFR
  2. Kengo said: "Lack of knowledge hasn't stopped you from passing judgment against various other people on the thread [COUGH-COUGH]Ron-Leavitt-and-Carlos-Asay[COUGH-COUGH]. Why so shy all of the sudden?" "That she saw him is one thing. What may (or may not) have transpired during their meeting is another thing entirely. For that, we have only her word." I said "4. If McKenna told Leavitt and if Leavitt organised an interview with Asay, and if she described the assault without calling it rape, then what ever she did after is irrelevant. " Do you have a problem with point 4?
  3. "According to her lawyer, she was the one who gave it to Mormonleaks. How is that not giving her permission to make it public?" CFR
  4. Calm, her criminal record is in the public domain. It includes 1. A DUI 2. Shoplifting You show me where she was prosecuted on any other matters. Show me. CFR.
  5. That McKenna saw Carlos Asay can be easily confirmed by the guy who took her to the interview.
  6. For me, these are the key arguments. 1.Mormonleaks made public the audio of McKenna's interview with Bishop without her permission. But with her support after the fact. 2.In retaliation, with or without the encouragement of church lawyers, Joseph Bishop's son made available to the media a dossier on McKenna's brushes with the law, including false accusations on various matters that were never prosecuted and which she retracted. This was done in a blatant attempt to discredit and gaslight her. 3. What this says to anyone who may have been raped or abused (whether McKenna is exaggerating or not), is If you have a record we will come after you. You'd better be darned near perfect. Yet as a victim of childhood sexual assault, McKenna and others like her are more likely to have complex backgrounds. Backgrounds that include an increased likelihood of further rape, drugs, depression, and so on. 4. If McKenna told Leavitt and if Leavitt organised an interview with Asay, and if she described the assault without calling it rape, then what ever she did after is irrelevant. And I do agree with Happy JW that this is flogging a dead horse.
  7. Scott is not referring to me here. I wrote quite clearly with no further detail.. "Smac, Joseph Smith had a criminal record, do you regard his credibility as poorly? If not, then your bias may be trickling in. Just a thought" That's all I wrote. I apologise. I felt it was relevant. It's a rusty point.
  8. Thankyou. In your opinion can the JP declare guilt. He can according to the link I provided. Fair suggested the JP couldn't.
  9. I don't have enough knowledge to make a judgement on that.
  10. And as for the dossier that smac continuously refers to. I think, reprehensibly (sorry Smac, I know my opinion won't be of any import to you in that sense anyway!), not one of those claims was ever prosecuted. She was never prosecuted. Maybe she was drunk, maybe she was depressed and on medication, maybe she was hurting, I don't know the context..and as the good wiki says *Jordan's dossier says that Denson later retracted her initial accusations on certain occasions as having been false. None of these accusations have been prosecuted* So, it appears she quickly felt bad and came to her senses and owned up. Whatever. She seems to have got her act together now. She seems empowered. I hope things go right for her.
  11. Well. Even Smac believes she is a victim of something untoward with Joseph Bishop. I've already clearly pointed out that I believe her in this instance. I believe her because her behaviour is consistent with someone who has been sexually traumatised in childhood and adulthood. I believe her because there are other victims. Victims who can corroborate her story of inappropriate behaviour by Bishop towards them. The way she has been scrutinized both here and in the press because Joseph Bishop's son maliciously releases private and personal information on her. Some true, some not, but even including the name of the daughter she gave away through LDS social services...highly confidential information... Information that never should have been put in the public domain because Bishop's son doesn't believe her... Pretty awful.. What does this very thread say to those children or adults who have been sexually abused within Mormonism? If you come forward, if you make it public...we re going to come after you with all guns blazing. We will analyse every minute detail of your life and in defence of the church we will destroy your credibility. I'm not arguing that false claims can't be made. Not one bit, but I'm 100% certain Joseph Bishop behaved reprehensibly towards vulnerable and already sexually traumatized women. He did so as a spiritual leader in a position of trust, put there by men ...men...who should have known better.. particularly if they were in the least aware of his sexual issues..and Elder Wells appears to have been aware of at least some of Bishop's sexual issues. I side with Denson on this issue because if there are women lurking out there, or men, who were sexually abused in childhood by church leaders or by, God forbid, parents, that someone will believe them, protect them and support them. They won't be alone. The small percentage of adults who lie about abuse in childhood or in their early youth, are the price I'm willing to pay, if I am wrong. The majority are not lying. The fact is that religious organisations, large and small, have been a haven for abusers. A haven. And those institutions have for a number of reasons not dealt effectively with the perpetrators. Those institutions do a lot of good. Those institutions hold a lot of good people. That goes without saying, but perhaps I should say it more often personally, no matter the validity of their truth claims.. Hinduism, Judaism..Islam and the great number of Christian communities. IICSA was set up in the UK to respond to societal failures in dealing with organisational sex abuse. They covered larger religious organisations but not smaller...(JWs. Mormons. etc) Here's their interim report. https://www.iicsa.org.uk/reports/interim/foreword Of those who came forward to the enquiry and who identified the setting, the third largest group where abuse was perpetrated were religious organisations, after the school and home. It's a significant problem. Here's a quick summary of the issues within the JWs. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/25/jehovahs-witnesses-accused-of-silencing-victims-of-child-abuse-uk And the thing is, most victims never report. So we are talking tip of iceberg. So forgive me if a commit a 100 logical fallacies. I'm prepared to be mistaken in one case, but would rather be mistaken than give any indication that I will hound a possible abuse victim. And by the way, those who think I will unquestionably accept any and all accounts...I had to leave a facebook group (basically I was hounded out) because I questioned Kristy Knight/Kristy Allen's claims. Her story was so outlandish that I have difficulty with it. I may be wrong on Kristy, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
  12. 1. I actually said we have all lied at one point or another in our lives, and we have all done things we regret. That's what I wrote, that's what I meant. 2., I'm not convinced she has a long history of making wild accusations for attention and/or money, and despite asking on numerous occasions for the sources of information, all I have is McKenna confessing in the employment case from a police report that she left out information and gave misleading responses. I have no way of weighing her credibility on such little information. 3. Do you judge Joseph Smith's credibility on the very worst or the very best of his behaviour? Ps. Time for bed here in the UK, but I do feel this is flogging a dead horse. Maybe we should just agree to disagree in this instance. I will personally side with the victim, the powerless, the vulnerable whether they are Mormon, 7th Day Adventist, Catholic, Scientologist etc etc.. I'm admitting and acknowledging my bias. Pps. McKenna's life. might have been a lot easier had her currently worthy and active ex husband paid child maintenance.
  13. I did. McKenna Denson has a criminal record. She has no doubt lied and done things that she now regrets, as we all have. Just because she has confessed to leaving out pertinent details or giving misleading information to the police (in the case of her past employment) does not mean she lied or is lying about Joseph Bishop. Joseph Smith has a criminal record. Joseph Smith lied about a number of issues and also did things he later regretted, but I assume no one who is a faithful member would argue that that discredits all the good and positive things he accomplished, nor that he always lied about everything.
  14. Abused children for instance will not be able to prove they were abused as children when they are adults. Not unless the perpetrator admits his or her abuse. Historic rape and child abuse are notoriously difficult to prove if the events are denied by the perpetrator.
  15. My approach is to believe the victim. That McKenna has a criminal background does not mean she is lying about Bishop. My sympathy lies with the abused, the vulnerable and the powerless.